Alternative Cancer Treatment - An unbiased discussion on the basic theories behind.

[pakeha]

^
Yes. I worry about Mike, to tell the truth.

Mike,
The article to which you link describes two specific serious conditions where treatment with bicarbonate may be necessary. The first is the condition of extreme metabolic acidosis where the normal buffering system in blood is already overwhelmed (note the blood pH described as 7.2). This is a very serious illness and further drop in blood pH will occur quickly and will probably be lethal. Therefore intravenous bicarbonate is given to restor the buffering capacity of the blood to compensate for the uncontrolled acidosis.
The second instance is a condition where the buffering capacity of the blood is nearly overwhelmed, and soon will be. Here again, intravenous bicarbonate can be lifesaving.
These are immediately life threatening conditions caused by severe metabolic acidosis. I will venture to guess that you do not know the difference between metabolic and respiratory acidosis, or alkalosis, and I do not have the time to provide a free on-line physiology course.

The normal blood buffering system prevents deviation of blood pH very far from 7.4, as many have told you in this thread. Deviations of blood pH can occur, are serious illnesses, and can cause serious harm.
Consuming small amounts of Na bicarbonate orally will not significantly deviate the blood pH because of the buffering system, and the excess bicarbonate you eat will be degraded and excreted to maintain balance.

However, the result of consuming too much oral sodium bicarbonate can be not good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18164162

Please be careful with your own homespun remedies. Medicine and physiology are extremely complex, and that is why physicians train for many years. Your misunderstanding of simple acid-base physiology should be a warning to you that, while intelligent, you do not have the appropriate background to fully comprehend the complex issues involved in cancer diagnosis and treatment. If you do have cancer, then you need an oncologist to help diagnose and treat you.

Because he publishes papers on how bicarbonate might be useful as part of cancer treatment.

That is not what I see in your writings. You argue that transportation of bicarbonate into cancer cells is damaging them - not helping them survive.

Looks like you already found literature on glucose transport across cell membranes. No need for me to repeat those.

Here is one you should try and get from your library. Figure 3 illustrate quite nicely how cancer cells eliminate acid (H⁺), including the use of bicarbonate, which is transported into the cell through its own transport system, and not alongside/bound to glucose.

It is a bit more complicated than that. I'll try and simplify things a bit. It has to do with the Warburg effect (Sometimes glucose is not fully degraded in spite of presence of oxygen, resulting in production of lactic acid instead of CO₂ and H₂O). This effect is prominent in many/most cancers. It is because of this effect that sugar uptake is useful in detecting cancers through PET-scans.

Here are a few examples of what complicates things a bit:
1) Cancer cells don't metabolise glucose through the Warburg effect only. There is evidence that some cancer cells also use citric acid cylus and oxidative phosphorylation.
2) Sometimes the warburg effect takes place in normal cells which are part of the cancers, providing molecular building blocks for the cancer cells.
3) The Warburg effect may also take place in normal cells.

But have you read articles demonstrating a chemical reaction between glucose in molasses and bicarbonate resulting in a chemical bond?. Since writing the post I am responding to, you have read about glucose transporters (The GLUT's). And you may have already started looking into bicarbonate transporters. This should enable you to look critical at the claim that glucose is chemically bound to bicarbonate, and this compound is then transported by the blood to cancer cells etc.

We are all susceptible to self delusion. And self delusion is a powerful convincer. This is why controlled experiments are necessary.

Here are trials on flaxseed and cancer registered on clincaltrials.gov.

And here are some where bicarbonate are part of the experimental treatments.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and links, both of you!

 

[Pixel42]

What we are doing is addressing the alt med fantasies that bicarbonate and flax oil are viable cancer treatments. We already know that this is false because there have been no clinical trials on the treatment of cancer using bicarbonate or flax oil.

I'd prefer to say we don't know if it's true or false until there have been clinical trials. It's up to those who think they might be effective treatments to organise such trials and get positive results before making any claims for their effectiveness. I'd be interested to know who is running the clinical trials listed in jli's links.

 

[jli]

I'd be interested to know who is running the clinical trials listed in jli's links.

This is important information. The project titles are also links to further details, including affiliations.

 

[Pixel42]

The project titles are also links to further details, including affiliations.

Thanks, I didn't notice that the titles were links.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Your understanding of cellular physiology and metabolism is extremely rudimentary, leading you to misunderstand what you are reading, and misapply the meaning to your problem. If you want to understand cells, metabolism and physiology better, please get a basic text on the subject and read it cover to cover before attempting to interpret the primary literature.

Try this:
http://www.amazon.com/Human-Physiol...id=1363634891&sr=1-9&keywords=cell+physiology

Come on Muddy! There is nothing worse than the Super-Sapiens attitude to make me disregard recommendations. I am not interested in becoming a master biologist or physiologist and no matter what you say I understand quite well some subtleties in the business.
I know your intentions are good and I appreciate it. It would be more helpful if you write your own understanding and ideas rather than saying I am uneducated.

 

[MikeAparicio]

I'd prefer to say we don't know if it's true or false until there have been clinical trials. It's up to those who think they might be effective treatments to organise such trials and get positive results before making any claims for their effectiveness. I'd be interested to know who is running the clinical trials listed in jli's links.

Hi Lady Pixel! Thanks for coming back!

I am also interested on those trials because they already have a meaning. Would they be running such trials without any references supporting some revealing results?

On the other hand, I do not take Clinical trials as "God's Act", subject to reverence and undisputed acceptance.

Why? Because there are so many variables not taken into account, trials can tell us really something like "It could be or maybe it could be not"

For instance: The links provided by Dr. Jli point to trials whose methods involve using Flax Seed with an unexplained diet.
I am convinced by Budwig writings, Flax seed is richer in Lignan more than Omega 3 content. You require a lot of seed to obtain a few cm of pure Flax oil. Hence, a more realistic test would involve following the Budwig outlines, which are very strict, mainly using highly fresh Flax Oil (and not seeds), although seeds are added to provide lignan as well.
Also the trial extends for three weeks, which according to the same writings and my own observations is a too short period to appreciate ANY results.
Budwig sets at least 6 months of absolute adherence to the "protocol"... Quite expensive for a trial, right?

So the trials could finally prove, "A treatment done the way they tested, lasting for the programmed period and with many variables in the substances used, might or might not work".

But the fact they are doing those partial trials is stimulating and revealing!

 

[MikeAparicio]

You are wrong in 2 ways:

• We are not expanding knowledge of anything. The information already exists out there in PubMed and other sources.
• There are no such protocols: Medical protocol.

What we are doing is addressing the alt med fantasies that bicarbonate and flax oil are viable cancer treatments. We already know that this is false because there have been no clinical trials on the treatment of cancer using bicarbonate or flax oil .
You are wasting everyones time with looking at the trivial fact that oral bicarbonate can temporarily change blood pH by a small amount - thus its occasional use in treating acidosis. Intravenous bicarbonate is the preferred method.

Reality: Why don't you drop your anti-Mike posture?
Fantasies? Fantasies? Were not Antibiotics a fantasy?
Were not Vaccines a fantasy?
Were not MRI, CAT and PET pure Flash Gordon fantasies?

The hilite above marks a legitimate sophism!
Read it again please!

I don't think I am "wasting everybody's time".... Am I "forcing" anyone to commit to this thread?

Also I made it clear in posts above, I am not exactly saying "raising blood pH can be used in treating...! I am saying: When Sodium bicarbonate is carried into blood by the mutual cotransporter effect between Na (Sodium) and Glucose, and opposite (that is what co-transportation implies), the bicarbonate is in a higher level than needed to balance blood so the excess eventually reaches the tumors.

I would need "proof" the Bicarbonate-Glucose binding is actually destroyed or not. At this point I assume it is not.

 

[MikeAparicio]

That is something that I have been wondering about. MikeAparicio seems to be experimenting on himself presumablely without medical supervision since he is not even having his blood pH monitored (the whole point of the experiment !). Luckily he may have done this short-term (a couple of days?).

Typical cancer treatments though extend over periods of weeks or months. MikeAparicio is advocating a treatment that would have patients in a state of alkalosis over that period with the associated health problems as in your citation. So the question becomes, what will kill the patient first - the cancer or the treatment !

Thank you for your worries. But you are misguided by the exaggerated reports and writings on Bicarbonate ingestion. AS the thread has already sustained, blood pH cannot be altered so easily! Right?
So... Do we agree on something? Does it alter it or not?

If not, (as it is) then why you worry so much? I have done the protocol (Synonyms: etiquette, rules, conventions, formalities, agreement), that is the bicarbonate-molasses formalities for 15 days in a row!
I have explained it in posts above so it would be boring to describe it all over.
I am not doing things without medical supervision as said.
On the contrary I am seeing quite a few specialists, and when I say "the last one visited" it does not mean "the last one I just contacted".... The last one Doctor I visited is the one after the previous one I visited!....
Forbid my bad, crude English, please.

So what happened during the fifteen days?

Test strips showed a progressive urine pH rise, oscillating at the beginning, but steady after 5th day.
Before starting the "protocol" Tumor was clearly visible, as an avocado seed right on top of my pubic bone, extending to the left, as a semi rigid mass in a conical shape. After the 18th day of having started the "protocol" tumor has resided to a point it was not visible at naked eye, but it could be touched and checked as flattened and shorter in length.
Pressure on the acetabulum was much reduced, so the neuropathic pain through the leg was greatly reduced.

Oncologist was IMPRESSED by the tumor reduction in such a short time.

Since then I have not done another pH protocol as recommended by the Flax-Sulfonated protein "protocol", which I am doing now. Purpose?
To restore apoptosis and see the rest of the tumor go "tumor heaven or limbo".

Anyway... Ive seen my former wife and sister being much more destroyed by conventional treatment than I have gotten by getting my urine under high pH for some days.

It is hard for me to keep my weight not to go up, I am hungry, happy, doing music, going to teach, making love and "wasting my time" in forums!

 

[Reality Check]

The singular of anecdotes is fairy story!

But you are misguided by the exaggerated reports and writings on Bicarbonate ingestion.

No I am not. Prolonged Bicarbonate ingestion caused dangerous side-effects as documented in the lkisterature and supplied to you, e.g.

AS the thread has already sustained, blood pH cannot be altered so easily! Right?

Wrong!
As the thread has already sustained, blood pH cn be altered short-term and in small amounts.

So...
We agree that you are running an unnecessary experiment on yourself that may have bad consequences on your health.
We agree that this experiment is really stupid for that reason and because it does not measure blood pH.

You still do not understand the obvious fact that your kidneys are maintaining your blood pH by excreting the excess bicarbonate into your urine.

We can agree that this is an anecdote, not any kind of scientific evidence.

We can agree that correlation is not causation and so any changes in your tumor cannot be attributed to your diet.

We can agree on the basic science that correlation is a statistical process and using a statistical sample of 1 is meaningless.

We can agree that some tumors are self-limiting (benign) and so your story means nothing.

We can agree that there is such a thing as spontaneous remission and so your story means nothing.

We can agree that a story about an unspecified type of tumor is just that - a story and means nothing.

We can agree that you are wasting our time.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
The singular of anecdotes is fairy story !

Anything else you want to agree on?

 

[Reality Check]

Reality: Why don't you drop your anti-Mike posture?

MikeAparicio: Why don't you drop your anti-science posture?
MikeAparicio: Why do you think thhat you are every alt. med. practitioner (the subject of my remark)?

There have been no clinical trials on the treatment of cancer using bicarbonate or flax oil . Thus anyone who thinks that they have effects on cancer is fantasizing. That is what I stated in

Originally Posted by Reality Check

You are wrong in 2 ways:

• We are not expanding knowledge of anything. The information already exists out there in PubMed and other sources.
• There are no such protocols: Medical protocol.

What we are doing is addressing the alt med fantasies that bicarbonate and flax oil are viable cancer treatments. We already know that this is false because there have been no clinical trials on the treatment of cancer using bicarbonate or flax oil . You are wasting everyones time with looking at the trivial fact that oral bicarbonate can temporarily change blood pH by a small amount - thus its occasional use in treating acidosis. Intravenous bicarbonate is the preferred method.

We know that oral bicarbonate can temporarily change blood pH by a small amount.
So you are wasting our time with asserting that oral bicarbonate can temporarily change blood pH by a small amount - Duh !

See my post (The singular of anecdotes is fairy story !) about how ridiculous it is to think that your story about your tumor is anything but a waste of our time.

 

[pgwenthold]

Last posts by un...Realitycheck again containing insults

You know, Mike, we can all read those posts. We can see they don't contain "insults and ad hominems" so crying persecution really isn't going to help you.

 

[MikeAparicio]

You know, Mike, we can all read those posts. We can see they don't contain "insults and ad hominems" so crying persecution really isn't going to help you.

To me, this paragraph:

So...
We agree that you are running an unnecessary experiment on yourself that may have bad consequences on your health.
We agree that this experiment is really stupid for that reason and because it does not measure blood pH.

Is an insult! Stupidities are committed by STUPID people... or what?

I have the right to resent such treatment!

 

[MuDPhuD]

To me, this paragraph:

So...
We agree that you are running an unnecessary experiment on yourself that may have bad consequences on your health.
We agree that this experiment is really stupid for that reason and because it does not measure blood pH.

Is an insult! Stupidities are committed by STUPID people... or what?

I have the right to resent such treatment!

Mike,
You have demonstrated very clearly in this thread that you have a poor appreciation of the basics of metabolism and physiology, and yet you insist on carrying out uncontrolled and un-monitored experiments on yourself attempting to modify your physiology and metabolism in order to treat an apparently un-diagnosed tumor!

If you have a tumor please go to a physician to have it properly diagnosed and then to an oncologist to get effective treatment (if necessary).

 

[pgwenthold]

To me, this paragraph:

So...
We agree that you are running an unnecessary experiment on yourself that may have bad consequences on your health.
We agree that this experiment is really stupid for that reason and because it does not measure blood pH.

Is an insult! Stupidities are committed by STUPID people... or what?

So you disagree with the assessment that

the experiment is stupid because
1) it is unnecessary and may have consequences on your health, and
2) It does not measure blood pH

Which part do you not agree with?

Do think it is necessary? Do you think that it will not have consequences on your health? Or do you think it does measure blood pH?

 

[jhunter1163]

Remember that the topic of this thread is alternative cancer treatments and not each other. This applies to all of you. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163

 

[Reality Check]

Last posts by un...Realitycheck again containing insults an ad hominem attacks.
...rant snipped...

You did not understand what I wote - the experiment is stupid beacuse the goal is to find out how your blood pH is changing and your blood pH is not being measured. As I said before: Duh !

The other problems are listed in The singular of anecdotes is fairy story (the title is sarcastic, the content is not)

But maybe I got something wrong so: MikeAparicio, Do you understand that your kidneys are maintaining your blood pH by excreting the excess bicarbonate into your urine?
Thus changes in the pH of urine are unreliable indicators any changes in blood pH.
In addition: Your Urine is Not a Window to Your Body: pH Balancing – A Failed Hypothesis

 

[Reality Check]

We agree that this experiment is really stupid for that reason and because it does not measure blood pH.

Is an insult! Stupidities are committed by STUPID people... or what?

Is not insult.
Is obviously a reference to the experiment.

 

[Pixel42]

I had lunch with my sister and a friend (S) yesterday, and my sister mentioned that someone she knew whose mother, grandmother and aunt had died of breast cancer had had a genetic test which showed she was also at risk, and had chosen to have preventative surgery. S, who is into all sorts of woo especially reiki, immediately told her that she should tell her friend to eat apricot seeds, as this was an effective preventative of - and even cure for - cancer. I asked her if there were studies that proved that and suggested she research it properly before making such suggestions, she insisted that she had researched it and yes, there were such studies. She then trotted out the "drug companies are trying to stop people finding out about such cures because they want to continue to make money out of expensive chemotherapy" line.

When I got home I googled 'apricot seeds and cancer' and got these links on the first page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4901132.stm

http://www.ehow.com/about_5393824_apricot-seed-cancer-cures.html

http://www.cancer-fighting-foods.org/apricot-seeds-cancer/

So it's the usual crackpot (tested and disproved) theory combined with the usual conspiracy theory, with the added twist that apricot seeds are poisonous in the quantities in which they are supposed to be taken.

I emailed the links to S, but I doubt it will do any good.

 

[jli]

...immediately told her that she should tell her friend to eat apricot seeds, as this was an effective preventative of - and even cure for - cancer

.....She then trotted out the "drug companies are trying to stop people finding out about such cures because they want to continue to make money out of expensive chemotherapy" line......

I emailed the links to S, but I doubt it will do any good.

The idea of existence of a simple cure for all cancers that is being suppressed by the pharmaceutical industry, medical establishment or some government institution comes up on a regular basis where people seek information about cancer.

It is rarely possible to convince believers that their favorite alternative cancer therapy is bonkers, because it has been presented to them in a convincing way.

But sometimes it is possible to make them understand why the conspiracy part is irrational. The following is my stock answer I currently use in the cancer section of Yahoo Answers to the question if alternative cancer cures are being suppressed for financial reasons:

No - Cancer is a collective term for approximately 200 different diseases. Every cell type in your body can (in principle) develop into its own type of cancer. On top of that individual cancer cells in every cancer are also different from one another. On top of that, the cancer cells interact in very complex ways with the surrounding normal cells. So it is not all that surprising that we don't have, and most likely won’t find a single cure for all cancers.

That being said, many cancers are cured on a daily basis. Most of them through surgery, but some of them are treated with additional radio-/chemotherapy. And some cancers are cured by chemotherapy alone. Overall cure rate is approximately 60%, so it is more likely that someone diagnosed with cancer will be cured than not. And outlooks are still improving - all thanks to research.

Let us for the sake of the argument imagine that a single cure of all cancers was possible.

Anyone who came up with a cure wouldn't lose money. They would become stinking rich. We know this because there are people who make a living out of selling false hopes to sick people. See for instance http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/01/joe-mercola-proof-positive-that-quackery/ It is scumbags like that who often start such conspiracy rumours, and then explain that they have (and sell) the cure. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, if you found your conspiracy theory on such a quack site.

On the internet there are many claims of miraculous "natural" cancer cures that are being suppressed. Here some of them are listed, with links to sites explaining what is wrong with them: http://anaximperator.wordpress.com/...-pharma-the-hidden-cancer-cure-but-which-one/

It is a shame that people who are dedicated to improve outlooks of cancer patients are being met with the contempt because of belief in such lunacy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/occams-corner/2012/dec/07/cancer-conspiracy-theories?fb=optOut

Another thing is, that it wouldn't be possible to keep it a secret. To know if it really works, it has to be tested on a lot of patients who actually have cancer. This is what is done in randomised clinical trials. To test it on cancer patients, they would have to collaborate with doctors who treat cancer patients. They would have to be the ones to give the treatment. And they would be the ones to do the followup, which is needed to know that the cancer is really gone, and doesn't come back.

To doctors who treat cancer patients, every cured patient is a success.
What do you deep down think the doctors would do if a new treatment worked far better than what they used to do?

1) Continue using the new treatment and become more successful.
2) Go back and use the old inferior treatment.

History tells us that 1) is the correct answer.

 

[pakeha]

^
Fantastic yahoo answer, jli.

...But maybe I got something wrong so: MikeAparicio, Do you understand that your kidneys are maintaining your blood pH by excreting the excess bicarbonate into your urine?
Thus changes in the pH of urine are unreliable indicators any changes in blood pH.
In addition: Your Urine is Not a Window to Your Body: pH Balancing – A Failed Hypothesis

Thanks for the link!
I've posted it up on my FB timeline for some friends who have bought into this idea.

...When I got home I googled 'apricot seeds and cancer' and got these links on the first page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4901132.stm

http://www.ehow.com/about_5393824_apricot-seed-cancer-cures.html

http://www.cancer-fighting-foods.org/apricot-seeds-cancer/

So it's the usual crackpot (tested and disproved) theory combined with the usual conspiracy theory, with the added twist that apricot seeds are poisonous in the quantities in which they are supposed to be taken.

I emailed the links to S, but I doubt it will do any good.

Maybe not at the moment, but I certainly appreciated those links. Thanks!