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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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I don't know how you can interpret that in any way other than Zimmerman immediately went down and onto his back.

"And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Ahhh... I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face."

There's another one for ya, the night of the incident. I'm sorry, but that does not say that he fell down "immediately", as in the punch lifted him off his feet, etc. Again, if it was the kind of punch that he describes, I don't see how you wouldn't be willing to reasonably conclude that his faculties would have been momentarily jarred, and his awareness of what was going on would have also been compromised. He said he fell, as in he didn't take the punch and remain standing, and that doesn't rule out that he may have stumbled a few steps before falling. You seem to be implying he pivoted on a fulcrum located at his ankles or something. The reason we're arguing this, or the reason I am, is because I believe it accounts for some of the distance that GZ moved southward along the T.
 
Well, that's you posting from the comfort of your computer and not living in the moment. That doesn't answer my question, though. Regardless of what you think he ought to have done, do you believe his confusion on the phone was honest?

No, I don't believe he was confused. I gave my reasons for not believing his confusion.

Posting from the comfort of my chair has nothing to do with any of this and slides a little to close to insulting for my tastes. Aren't we all posting from the comfort of somewhere? I sure don't think I'm special. None of us were "living in that moment".
 
"And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Ahhh... I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face."

There's another one for ya, the night of the incident. I'm sorry, but that does not say that he fell down "immediately", as in the punch lifted him off his feet, etc. Again, if it was the kind of punch that he describes, I don't see how you wouldn't be willing to reasonably conclude that his faculties would have been momentarily jarred, and his awareness of what was going on would have also been compromised. He said he fell, as in he didn't take the punch and remain standing, and that doesn't rule out that he may have stumbled a few steps before falling. You seem to be implying he pivoted on a fulcrum located at his ankles or something. The reason we're arguing this, or the reason I am, is because I believe it accounts for some of the distance that GZ moved southward along the T.

That's just one of the many versions GZ has given about what happened that night. How are we to know which one to believe?
 
"And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Ahhh... I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face."

There's another one for ya, the night of the incident. I'm sorry, but that does not say that he fell down "immediately", as in the punch lifted him off his feet, etc.


So according to you, "at that point" =/= "immediately"?
 
Citation please?

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/michael-brandy-paramedic-sanford-fd/

Told the officer there that he was gonna need to go to the hospital probably and get some stitches

5:20 of the recording there. This is also when the PD told him that they would be taking GZ to the hospital.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/stacey-livingston-paramedic/

6:20-6:35

That's the opposite of the truth. The direct quote from the medical report is "No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins".

In layman's terms that means the wound was closed. Wounds that close on their own don't require sutures.

The EMTs on the scene might have thought otherwise, but the doctor overruled them the next day.

I'm not sure where I got the impression his doctor said he needed (or could have used) stitches, but obviously it wasn't in the medical report.

After a certain period of time, it's unwise to stitch a wound if it's already healing on its own, as it can increase the risk of infection. Had the doctor seen the injury the night of the event, he/she likely would have recommended stitches. Because the wound was healing fine on its own the next day (which wasn't necessarily obvious the night before), it was determined the wounds didn't need stitches.
 
So according to you, "at that point" =/= "immediately"?

Not quite the same. The way he put it leaves room open for stumbling IMO, and that's what he said at the walk through the next day anyway. It didn't appear to me that he was noticing some sort of flaw in his attempts to pull the wool over the investigators eyes or anything when he told them that. He seems fairly calm in just about all his interviews or reenactments, not like he's been suddenly put on the spot, as if his cover is about to be blown, and he needs to think up something quick to cover his tracks. So unless he's a sociopath, which I'm sure many people believe, or would like to believe, I think he's being genuinely honest and was just eager to help the police in any way he could.

Had he been intent on deceiving the police, I don't think he would have ever agreed to do all those interviews, walk throughs, etc, without an attorney present.

ETA: The thing that I find most important to consider is that, after taking the kind of punch GZ stated he took when TM first approached him, it's totally reasonable for him not to have a crystal clear image of what transpired immediately afterwards, or perhaps for even a few moments beyond that as well. Getting clocked in the face hard enough to break your nose and make you fall down is going to rock, or daze you for at least a few moments. Happens all the time in MMA. People get punched really hard, and even ask their corner, minutes later "what happened?" "what did he hit me with?" and they'll comment later about "I don't even remember most of what happened in round 3" or whatever.
 
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Little things like this that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

Fresh as a daisy clean, after suffering a severe death-defying beating at the hands of the slim jim just barely-seventeen Skittle carrier.

No lie not worth telling, eh?

To those who read more and font less, it's clear that Zimmerman's back was wet and grass-covered when the police arrived. Maybe Senior brought a bottle of Dassani and some lawn clippings along with his cricket bat.

Clunkity, clucnk.
 
The way he put it leaves room open for stumbling IMO, and that's what he said at the walk through the next day anyway.

Zimmerman is fairly clear about his uncertainty concerning the distance travelled down the T. He was off around 10-15' - in the re-enactment he seems to have W6 coming out of W11's patio door.
 
Spot on... what you say is probably true. Is it reasonable to expect GZ to have reached those same conclusions, in the heat of the moment, with just a few moments to think about such things? We've had over a year to contemplate things to the ends of the Earth, to discuss things with others, brainstorm, etc., and many people hold GZ to the same standard of logic in his few moments of contemplation that we've had a relative eternity to conclude.

No, it isn't reasonable to conclude that GZ would be able to reach a reasonable conclusion even if he had an eternity. GZ says he went through to Retreat View Circle to get an address so he could tell the police where to meet him when they call. Does he find an address? There is no indication that he did. Does he act in a manor consistent with establishing a rendouvous point to meet the police? No, he does not stay at the location that would have a known address. We conclude therefore that GZ is lying.


BTW, there appears to also be a 1211 Retreat View Circle, so if he gave just "1211", it wouldn't have likely brought them to 1211 Twin Trees Lane (the house just to the right of the west entrance to the T). Of course, I only know that because I'm sitting in my easy chair, relaxed, looking up stuff online.

That's exactly where the dispatcher would be. Looking at a map like the dispatcher would have displayed in front of him, which of the three 1211 addresses do you reach if you come in straight past the clubhouse and take a left just like George had said? Of course, we don't expect George to be able to to this. We accept that George is an idiot.
 
Zimmerman is fairly clear about his uncertainty concerning the distance travelled down the T. He was off around 10-15' - in the re-enactment he seems to have W6 coming out of W11's patio door.


Which is it? Does George Zimmerman have a clear recollection of the events that transpired that night or not?
 
No lie not worth telling, eh?

To those who read more and font less, it's clear that Zimmerman's back was wet and grass-covered when the police arrived. Maybe Senior brought a bottle of Dassani and some lawn clippings along with his cricket bat.

Clunkity, clucnk.


gwetjacketwithgrassstains.jpg


photo-43gzopenjacket_zpsc0e56385.png


025_zpse74070a2.jpg
 
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He sounded distracted and like he was having difficulty recalling the name and directions. Do you think his confusion giving directions to the officer was a part of his big conspiracy to commit murder? I believe his answers, at least on the phone with NEN were genuine. At that point, he has no real reason to be dishonest. That was happening in real time, remember.

Chasing down a "suspect" when he knows he isn't supposed to is a reason to be dishonest.
 
"And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Ahhh... I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face."

You're just proving my argument. Zimmerman said he fell down right after being punched in the nose.

The rest of your post is just a bunch a disingenuous sophistry I'll not bother with.
 
"And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Ahhh... I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face."

There's another one for ya, the night of the incident. I'm sorry, but that does not say that he fell down "immediately", as in the punch lifted him off his feet, etc. ...


GZ: Um, then dispatcher told me, where are you. And I said I’m trying to find out where he went. And he said, we don’t need you to do that. And I said, oh, okay. Um, he said we already have a police officer in route. And I said, oh, all right. And I…I had gone where, through the dog walk where I normally walk my dog and walked back through to my street, the street that loops around, and he said we already have a police officer on the way, so I said okay. I told…they said would like a police officer to meet you, and I said yes, and I told him where my car was and the make and the model. So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes. And he said, “WTF’s your problem, homey?” And I got my cell phone out… to call 911 this time. And I say, hey man, I don’t have a problem. And he was, “No, now you have a problem” and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down, ah, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face and, ah, I started screaming for help. I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breathe, then he starting taking my head…
DS: Are you still standing at this point?
GZ: No, ma’am, I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time.
DS: Okay.
GZ: It was dark, I didn’t even see him…getting ready to punch me.
As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards, um, into the grass.


2/26 audio interview part 1 (Inv. Singleton)
===========================

Close enough to "immediately" ?
 
After a certain period of time, it's unwise to stitch a wound if it's already healing on its own, as it can increase the risk of infection. Had the doctor seen the injury the night of the event, he/she likely would have recommended stitches. Because the wound was healing fine on its own the next day (which wasn't necessarily obvious the night before), it was determined the wounds didn't need stitches.

Your unsolicited and unsubstantiated opinion of what the doctor was thinking and might have done the night before notwithstanding, the medical report reads quite simply "No sutures needed".

End of story.
 
Speaking of this, does anybody have something that shows, conclusively, the distance from the T area to where TM's body was found?


Didn't they get the data dumps on the previous site where you were following this case? I tossed together this sketch from the measurements that were taken the night of the murder:

picture.php



I posted this originally back in July (post 2259 in this thread) so the rest of the data would be on my summer computer. This sketch is drawn to scale so you should be able to align it with an arial photo to find the position of the tee.
 
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While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground."

I guess Truth needs a tactic.
 
Zimmerman is fairly clear about his uncertainty concerning the distance travelled down the T. He was off around 10-15' - in the re-enactment he seems to have W6 coming out of W11's patio door.

Even if you want to pretend George Zimmerman the proven liar made an innocent oopsie when he was untruthful about the location of the altercation, it still doesn't explain what he was doing behind the row of houses.

He told the police he was looking for a street sign. Street signs are on the street, not in the backyard area of houses.
 
He was supposed to tell the responding officers "Yeah, just come to 1211... um... 1211... uh..." How are you supposed to give an address when you don't even know the name of the street the address is on?

I stated the above to give insight into what I believe GZ's reasoning was, in that moment. Judge for yourself if you think it fits. He claimed he wasn't satisfied with the directions he had given dispatchers, and if you listen to the NEN call, I think it's fairly clear why.

Listen to the NEN call from 1:45 til 2:03. At 2:03 it seems to me like GZ is starting to get distracted by something TM is doing (I presume), but anyway, he's still in the middle of trying to give directions to where he's parked, and doesn't finish before the "****, he's running", etc.

At 3:00 he resumes trying to tell them where his truck is at (via turn by turn directions, essentially), and then the dispatcher asks him what address he's parked at, which he doesn't know ("it's a cut through"), and then they get caught up in GZ telling them his house number. It's then that the dispatcher suggests they meet at the mailboxes, which GZ first agrees to (sort of absentmindedly if you ask me) then GZ asks the dispatcher to have them call him so he can tell them where he's at.

First, notice that all his stumbling in telling where he's at could have been quickly resolved by him saying "I'm on Twin Trees Lane", so he either doesn't remember the name of the street, or you believe GZ didn't want them to find him or something (he was lying about not knowing, etc.).

Anyway, at that point, at the end of the call, I suppose you either believe GZ was actually wanting the responding officer to call him back because he was unsatisfied with the information he had given the dispatcher (like GZ has stated in his interviews), or you believe GZ wanted to continue looking for TM, and that's the reason he didn't want to give an exact location. Perhaps there are more theories, but those seem to be the two most common.

Dispatchers are accustomed to dealing with partial information. The house number and the neighborhood name may be sufficient to uniquely identify the house. If not, there are only a couple of possibilities and George's directions to find his truck would be a sufficient discriminator.

Ok, why are you stating this? Is this knowledge that GZ should have been thinking of at that moment? Why didn't the dispatcher relay this information to GZ while on the phone if it's something he should have been accustomed to? It's quite clear GZ is struggling to tell him where he's at. The dispatcher's response to GZ trying to give turn-by-turn directions to his location is "Ok, what address are you parked in front of?". If turn-by-turn directions were sufficient, I imagine the dispatcher would have accepted that, and would not have asked for an address, but he did. It's a lot easier for the dispatcher to just punch in an address for the cops to head to, than try to retell, word for word, GZ's directions.

No, it isn't reasonable to conclude that GZ would be able to reach a reasonable conclusion even if he had an eternity. GZ says he went through to Retreat View Circle to get an address so he could tell the police where to meet him when they call. Does he find an address? There is no indication that he did.

There's no indication the police called him, and it was they who he was going to get the address for anyway, so without that call, there wouldn't be an indication. The only problem with that idea is that GZ stated in his interviews that he was on the phone with dispatch when he reached RVC, so I also wonder why he didn't give them the address at that time. GZ also didn't mention hanging around at RVC, and that he went directly back to his truck once he reached RVC. So if GZ gets off the phone with NEN at RVC, and immediately heads back to his truck, he's at the T, where he says the altercation begins, in just a matter of seconds, but the first 911 call doesn't come in for over 2 1/2 minutes (iirc) after the conclusion of that call. So GZ either didn't actually get to RVC while on the phone with dispatch, he didn't leave RVC immediately after he got there (he hung around for a bit, getting the address, and waiting for that officer's call), he continued to look for TM (but where did he look?), or the encounter lasted quite a while (well over 2 minutes). What time did the last call with DD take place, compared to when the NEN call ended, and the first 911 call came in?

Does he act in a manor consistent with establishing a rendouvous point to meet the police? No, he does not stay at the location that would have a known address. We conclude therefore that GZ is lying.

To the underlined: Do you mean RVC? We only "know" he didn't stay there based on what he's said in his interviews. I think it's possible, even likely that he's not accounting for all the time he spent at the T, or at RVC, etc. I think it's established that the police never tried to contact him, so perhaps he waited there for about a minute, the call never came, so he walks back across the T, back to his truck. Who knows. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's just not remembering things as accurately as we would like for him to.

That's exactly where the dispatcher would be. Looking at a map like the dispatcher would have displayed in front of him, which of the three 1211 addresses do you reach if you come in straight past the clubhouse and take a left just like George had said? Of course, we don't expect George to be able to to this. We accept that George is an idiot.

If the dispatcher has a map in front of him (this appears to be your assumption), then why didn't the dispatcher just ask "are you on Twin Trees Lane"? GZ had already given the dispatcher the address for the clubhouse, so if the dispatcher had a map in front of him, the clubhouse address would have put him right in the vicinity on the map, and he could have just visually followed the map based on GZ's directions and easily seen Twin Trees Lane, but the dispatcher never hints at that. I do accept that GZ is likely an idiot.
 
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