Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

I notice a lot of absolutes being thrown around in this entire incident, as if because something expected (with no expertise on the matter) isn't present, it is indicative of something, especially something that points to GZ's story being fabricated.

At the very least, Zimmerman's story doesn't line up with the evidence.

Some people prefer to assume that's a result of "fuzzy memory".

Others realize Zimmerman is a proven liar who has shown no compunction about defrauding a court of law or lying to police during the course of this investigation.

 

[Rare Truth]

GZ had two flashlights on him that night though, the large "tactical" one (Rocky brand, I believe), which was the one found closer to the body, and the much smaller one attached to his keys, which is the one that was found illuminated (listed on the crime scene evidence diagram). So, which one was Serino referring to?

The tactical flashlight, obviously.

Also, watch this video here, it is an individual's review of what appears to be the same flashlight GZ was using, and notice how this person talks about having difficulties getting his flashlight working as well. The upload date of the video was well before the incident, so it's not some conspired video made to support GZ or anything. Skip ahead to 0:50 to get to the part he mentions it malfunctioning.

watch?v=iGGDu3Ehx0s

I can't share links yet, so just copy/past the above link into Google or Youtube search.

I don't know what your point is. Did it work at that moment when he was at the "T" when he concocted that story about being afraid in the dark?

Who knows? Who cares?

Serino said he got it to work. No biggie either way.

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, what was the "ground" there? It was thick (probably St. Augustine), rain-slicked grass. How much "dirt" was there for him to dig into? What sort of stains were you expecting on denim, on such slippery, wet grass?

I notice a lot of absolutes being thrown around in this entire incident, as if because something expected (with no expertise on the matter) isn't present, it is indicative of something, especially something that points to GZ's story being fabricated.

And concrete so soft you can have your head pounded 30 times into it, and only get a cuppla boo boos so superficial you don't even need a band aid for 'em.

 

[phonebook]

The ballistics DO NOT comport with Z's story. Totally mountable.

Is this LLMPapa speaking?

Creepy guy chases after a kid he thought was armed and drugged and the cops are on their way, it's dark, he said he was afraid to walk back without light...after the 311 call ended...why wouldn't he stay on the phone with 311 till he got back to his truck?

It certainly sounded to me like the NEN dispatcher was attempting to conclude the call. GZ stated in his 02/29/12 interview with Serino that as he headed back from RVC to his truck, he was expecting to meet with a police officer shortly. He wasn't under the impression that the suspect was going to stick around and wait for him; GZ had no clue who TM was, and that he was actually staying there. He explains in the CVSA interview that he had made a dozen or so calls previously, and the previous suspects just ran, how they were very familiar with the neighborhood, and would disappear in seconds.

Why did he concoct a story about street names and forgetting the name of the street he lived on?

When did he forget the name of the street he lived on (Retreat View Circle)? He forgot Twin Trees Lane, which he doesn't live on, and which, in all the previously released calls of his to 911 or the NEN, he also doesn't mention by name. He never mentions it on the 02/26 call, and in fact he's struggling to explain where his truck is parked, which would have been simple had he just told them "Twin Trees Lane", so what makes you confident that he has "concocted" a story?

Zimmerman had been following Martin. Witness 8 describes how TM characterized him as "creepy" ...a creepy, crazy man following him.

TM said why are you following me?

in GZ's version,it's hey what's your problem, man?

Witness 8's story is only beginning to be revealed. We'll see how much the prosecution relies on her testimony come trial time.

At that point Z reached into his pocket - how does TM not know the creepy man isn't reaching for a gun?

TM was in fear of his life. Doesn't he merit a Stand Your Ground defense?

I can sorta see this being a tenable argument, that TM may have been fearful of what GZ was reaching for. But if you are considering this, then you're also considering the rest of GZ's story up to that point being true, that GZ was walking back to his vehicle, and TM apparently either waiting around for GZ, or returning after being at Brandy's townhouse, then approaches GZ from behind asking "Do you got a problem?", then GZ answering "No", and I suppose you'll bail out on GZ's story when TM says "Well you have a problem now" and punches GZ in the face? Let's embrace GZ's story juuuuuust prior to the point the blame starts to shift to TM.

It doesn't make sense that TM was in fear for his life if he approaches GZ when GZ doesn't even notice him as he's walking back to his truck, so I suppose the only thing that puts TM in fear for his life is GZ reaching towards his pocket? I guess I'm unsure what TM would have legally been permitted to do at that point. I believe TM is required to attempt to flee, especially if his first punch knocks GZ to the ground, which would have given him the perfect opportunity to do so, but then to what extent is TM allowed to continue attacking GZ? Is he allowed to get on top of him and continue this beating? You're arguing that TM had SYG rights as well, so are you saying that GZ's story of how TM continued to beat him is true or not?

 

[Unabogie]

When did he forget the name of the street he lived on (Retreat View Circle)? He forgot Twin Trees Lane, which he doesn't live on, and which, in all the previously released calls of his to 911 or the NEN, he also doesn't mention by name. He never mentions it on the 02/26 call, and in fact he's struggling to explain where his truck is parked, which would have been simple had he just told them "Twin Trees Lane", so what makes you confident that he has "concocted" a story?

There are only three streets in that whole area. The addresses were right in front of him, lit by lamps and he could have easily said "I don't remember the name of the street, but just go straight in past the mailboxes and it's 1934" or whatever. There was zero reason to walk all the way through to get a street address, and in any case, he DIDN'T do that! He never got a street, never told that to the dispatcher, and took far too long to on the call to have been merely looking for an address. Go ahead and watch the walk through again, only take a close look at the time it takes for them to walk from the truck to the T to RVC, and back. It's like 15 seconds to get across that walkway. On the NEN call, it's over two minutes from the time you hear George huffing and puffing his way out of the truck to the time he hangs up. If all he was doing was looking for an address, why wasn't he already back at his truck and why did he never tell the dispatcher what the address was?

 

[phonebook]

The tactical flashlight, obviously.

What makes it obvious? There were 2 flashlights, and one of them was found illuminated/on at the scene of the crime. Serino could easily be referring to that one.

I don't know what your point is. Did it work at that moment when he was at the "T" when he concocted that story about being afraid in the dark?

Who knows? Who cares?

Serino said he got it to work. No biggie either way.

The point is how/why it was found near TM's body if GZ didn't voluntarily run/move there first. If it wasn't working at the time, I think it makes sense that GZ could have put it in one of his jacket pockets, and while in the scuffle on the ground, and especially when GZ mentions his jacket being shifted up, it could have come out of his pocket at that point, explaining how it ended up there.

Serino could have been bluffing (he bluffed GZ about there possibly being a video of the incident, and that an "anonymous" caller claimed to have seen GZ trying to detain TM), or he could have been referring to the smaller flashlight that was found on. Also, SkepticTank mentioned earlier about Serino "acknowledges that he interacted with the same flashlight and found it to be inoperable or nearly so". I'm unsure what he's referring to, but it seems to add credence to GZ's claim that it wasn't working.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are only three streets in that whole area. The addresses were right in front of him, lit by lamps and he could have easily said "I don't remember the name of the street, but just go straight in past the mailboxes and it's 1934" or whatever. There was zero reason to walk all the way through to get a street address, and in any case, he DIDN'T do that! He never got a street, never told that to the dispatcher, and took far too long to on the call to have been merely looking for an address. Go ahead and watch the walk through again, only take a close look at the time it takes for them to walk from the truck to the T to RVC, and back. It's like 15 seconds to get across that walkway. On the NEN call, it's over two minutes from the time you hear George huffing and puffing his way out of the truck to the time he hangs up. If all he was doing was looking for an address, why wasn't he already back at his truck and why did he never tell the dispatcher what the address was?

Why wasn't TM already at home ? Remember, the charging affidavit says GZ stopped him from getting home.

In that 2 minutes that we "hear George huffing and puffing his way out of the truck to the time he hangs up" TM could not make it 300 feet home , to get away from the "creepy guy" he was scared of ?

 

[Rare Truth]

.

It certainly sounded to me like the NEN dispatcher was attempting to conclude the call. GZ stated in his 02/29/12 interview with Serino that as he headed back from RVC to his truck, he was expecting to meet with a police officer shortly.

If he was afraid, as he said he was, there is no reason he could not have told the 311 operator to hold on till he made it back safely to his truck.

After all, there was a crazed, drug-addled, possible gun toting young buck out there that Z was even afraid of being heard to give an address.

When did he forget the name of the street he lived on (Retreat View Circle)? He forgot Twin Trees Lane, which he doesn't live on, and which, in all the previously released calls of his to 911 or the NEN, he also doesn't mention by name. He never mentions it on the 02/26 call, and in fact he's struggling to explain where his truck is parked, which would have been simple had he just told them "Twin Trees Lane", so what makes you confident that he has "concocted" a story?

Unaboogie answered that one well enough.

Yes, the Neighborhood Watch captain concocted the story.

Witness 8's story is only beginning to be revealed. We'll see how much the prosecution relies on her testimony come trial time.

Witness 8's story is as simple as what she heard Martin while he was on the phone being followed by a creepy man and what TM said to her in his last few words on earth. Nothing more.

I can sorta see this being a tenable argument, that TM may have been fearful of what GZ was reaching for. But if you are considering this, then you're also considering the rest of GZ's story up to that point being true, that GZ was walking back to his vehicle, and TM apparently either waiting around for GZ, or returning after being at Brandy's townhouse, then approaches GZ from behind asking "Do you got a problem?", then GZ answering "No", and I suppose you'll bail out on GZ's story when TM says "Well you have a problem now" and punches GZ in the face? Let's embrace GZ's story juuuuuust prior to the point the blame starts to shift to TM.

Bzzzzzzzzzt. Logic alert. Logic alert.

It doesn't make sense that TM was in fear for his life if he approaches GZ when GZ doesn't even notice him as he's walking back to his truck, so I suppose the only thing that puts TM in fear for his life is GZ reaching towards his pocket? I guess I'm unsure what TM would have legally been permitted to do at that point. I believe TM is required to attempt to flee, especially if his first punch knocks GZ to the ground, which would have given him the perfect opportunity to do so, but then to what extent is TM allowed to continue attacking GZ? Is he allowed to get on top of him and continue this beating? You're arguing that TM had SYG rights as well, so are you saying that GZ's story of how TM continued to beat him is true or not?

1. It makes total sense.

2. If a gun is about to be pulled on you?
I guess you are saying Martin did not have a right to a Stand Your Ground defense.

I'll remind you, more than once, Martin DID attempt to flee the creepy man following him.

3. Those minor boo boos in no way match the story of the "beating" as Z tells it. They just don't.

 

[Unabogie]

Why wasn't TM already at home ? Remember, the charging affidavit says GZ stopped him from getting home.

In that 2 minutes that we "hear George huffing and puffing his way out of the truck to the time he hangs up" TM could not make it 300 feet home , to get away from the "creepy guy" he was scared of ?

Let's back up here and remember that we don't know for sure where George was when he started following the victim. We only have his word, and we know that Shellie moved his truck before police could search it. And we also know that Shellie is perfectly willing to lie in order to help her husband. In fact, she's up on charges of perjury, in case you forgot. So the fact is that we don't know how long Trayvon had, or where all of George's huffing and puffing took place aside from his word. All we can do is say that his story doesn't match the call he made or the location of the evidence.

It's perfectly possible that George got out of his car by the mailboxes or by the clubhouse, and ran towards where he killed the victim, isn't it? All we have is his word on where that stuff went down. Somehow they ended up behind those houses, but you're willing to take the word of a proven liar even though his story cannot possibly be true, just because it also presents a problem for the location of the victim?

Let's both agree, then: George's story presents all kinds of logical inconsistencies because of the timeline of the 311 call and the location of the body.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

3. Those minor boo boos in no way match the story of the "beating" as Z tells it. They just don't.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting

Serino wrote that Zimmerman's injuries were " marginally consistent with a life-threatening violent episode as described by him."

Or they actually do.

 

[Unabogie]

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting

Serino wrote that Zimmerman's injuries were " marginally consistent with a life-threatening violent episode as described by him."

Or they actually do.

What does the word "marginally" mean to you?

 

[Rare Truth]

What makes it obvious? There were 2 flashlights, and one of them was found illuminated/on at the scene of the crime. Serino could easily be referring to that one.

No, it was the tactical flashlight.Not the keychain flashlight that was found on. Duh. Do I need to walk you through that one?

The point is how/why it was found near TM's body if GZ didn't voluntarily run/move there first. If it wasn't working at the time, I think it makes sense that GZ could have put it in one of his jacket pockets, and while in the scuffle on the ground, and especially when GZ mentions his jacket being shifted up, it could have come out of his pocket at that point, explaining how it ended up there.

Serino could have been bluffing (he bluffed GZ about there possibly being a video of the incident, and that an "anonymous" caller claimed to have seen GZ trying to detain TM), or he could have been referring to the smaller flashlight that was found on. Also, SkepticTank mentioned earlier about Serino "acknowledges that he interacted with the same flashlight and found it to be inoperable or nearly so". I'm unsure what he's referring to, but it seems to add credence to GZ's claim that it wasn't working.

Not going to waste my energy on pickyunish minutia about whether Seriino was "bluffing" or not, or whether the flashlight worked or not.

Doesn't matter. It was found next to the body. How it got there we may or may not find out.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are only three streets in that whole area. The addresses were right in front of him, lit by lamps and he could have easily said "I don't remember the name of the street, but just go straight in past the mailboxes and it's 1934" or whatever. There was zero reason to walk all the way through to get a street address, and in any case, he DIDN'T do that! He never got a street, never told that to the dispatcher, and took far too long to on the call to have been merely looking for an address. Go ahead and watch the walk through again, only take a close look at the time it takes for them to walk from the truck to the T to RVC, and back. It's like 15 seconds to get across that walkway. On the NEN call, it's over two minutes from the time you hear George huffing and puffing his way out of the truck to the time he hangs up. If all he was doing was looking for an address, why wasn't he already back at his truck and why did he never tell the dispatcher what the address was?

Let's back up here and remember that we don't know for sure where George was when he started following the victim. .

But you know enough to make the claim above, but not enough to explain why TM couldn't make it 300 feet home ?

We only have his word,

The police ran his license plate. They should know where it was parked.

and we know that Shellie moved his truck before police could search it.

Search it for what ? His accomplice ?

We already discussed this, and they would have had no right to search it.

And we also know that Shellie is perfectly willing to lie in order to help her husband. In fact, she's up on charges of perjury, in case you forgot.

Many people are charged with things and turn out to not be guilty. Unless simply being charged is your new standard of guilt ?

So the fact is that we don't know how long Trayvon had, or where all of George's huffing and puffing took place aside from his word. All we can do is say that his story doesn't match the call he made or the location of the evidence.

Really, you are saying we don't know at all, can't even make an educated guess ? At worst, he was 400 feet away from home ? Why didn't he keep going home in all that time he had ?

It's perfectly possible that George got out of his car by the mailboxes or by the clubhouse, and ran towards where he killed the victim, isn't it? All we have is his word on where that stuff went down. Somehow they ended up behind those houses, but you're willing to take the word of a proven liar even though his story cannot possibly be true, just because it also presents a problem for the location of the victim?

I'm not following. If GZ got out at the mailbox, doesn't that make it even easier for TM to get home ?

Let's both agree, then: George's story presents all kinds of logical inconsistencies because of the timeline of the 311 call and the location of the body.

No, why don't you go ahead and be specific about how it creates a problem for why TM didn't just go home.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What does the word "marginally" mean to you?

mar·gin·al [mahr-juh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
pertaining to a margin.
2.
situated on the border or edge.
3.
at the outer or lower limits; minimal for requirements; almost insufficient: marginal subsistence; marginal ability.

Number 3

 

[Rare Truth]

ABC Suit: New Motion

Defendant Motion to Stay Proceedings

 

[Unabogie]

But you know enough to make the claim above, but not enough to explain why TM couldn't make it 300 feet home ?

That makes no sense. We're discussing how his story doesn't make sense. So for that purpose, we have to take him at his word and at face value in order to test it against the evidence. That's doesn't mean I believe him.

The police ran his license plate. They should know where it was parked.

Where is that location noted in any report, please?

Search it for what ? His accomplice ?

Alcohol? He sounded drunk on that 311 call.
Other weapons? Other items to demonstrate he was not going to the store?
Perhaps just photograph it since the location of the vehicle is going to place a part in the murder case?

We already discussed this, and they would have had no right to search it.

George agreed to every other kind of search imaginable. Why didn't they simply ask him to search the car?

Many people are charged with things and turn out to not be guilty. Unless simply being charged is your new standard of guilt ?

Except she obviously lied. We all know this, and your continued refusal to admit something so blatant is a daily demerit for you.

Really, you are saying we don't know at all, can't even make an educated guess ? At worst, he was 400 feet away from home ? Why didn't he keep going home in all that time he had ?

You missed my point. We don't know where any of the players were beyond the word of a liar.

I'm not following. If GZ got out at the mailbox, doesn't that make it even easier for TM to get home ?

It depends on where they all were when this started. You assume it started where he says it did. I am merely pointing out that his timeline is impossible since he says the victim was at the clubhouse and then 15 seconds later he at the T coming to "check him out". It's impossible for that to be accurate, so we're left to speculate.

No, why don't you go ahead and be specific about how it creates a problem for why TM didn't just go home.

Because George could have gotten out and chased the victim before the clubhouse. Or he could have gotten out down by the "back entrance" and ran up north and caught him that way. We don't know, since at least one witness saw someone running that direction.

That leaves us with a story that isn't matching up no matter how you slice it. I'm just pointing that out to you.

 

[Unabogie]

mar·gin·al [mahr-juh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
pertaining to a margin.
2.
situated on the border or edge.
3.
at the outer or lower limits; minimal for requirements; almost insufficient: marginal subsistence; marginal ability.

Number 3

Right, "minimal for requirements" and "almost insufficient". In other words, barely passable and Serino wasn't exactly buying his story.

I'd agree with that.

 

[Rare Truth]

...
Many people are charged with things and turn out to not be guilty. Unless simply being charged is your new standard of guilt ?

...

How much you want to bet Shellie Zimmerman will be found guilty of Perjury?

You wanna belly up? Sig line for a month?

Whaddya say?

 

[Unabogie]

ABC Suit: New Motion

Defendant Motion to Stay Proceedings

It's amazing, as always, to read about all those 311 calls to police. George sure liked to call the cops on black kids who happened to be in the neighborhood. It's almost like he had a thing about them.

Can't quite put my finger on it, though, right?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Right, "minimal for requirements" and "almost insufficient". In other words, barely passable and Serino wasn't exactly buying his story.
I'd agree with that.

I think serino believed his story, based on his comments below.

I also think serino thought he should be guilty of something for not diffusing the situation.

And recall, Serino has hired Baez as his attorney. Any guesses on why Serino thinks he needs a big name defense attorney ?


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency
Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.
The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/12/2892510/more-evidence-released-in-zimmerman.html
Telling the FBI that he was concerned that people inside the police department were leaking information, Serino cited Sgt. Arthur Barnes, officers Rebecca Villalona and Trekelle Perkins “as all pressuring him to file charges against Zimmerman after the incident,” an FBI report said. “Serino did not believe he had enough evidence at the time to file charges.”[/QUOTE]