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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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"Serino implied to GZ that there was a video recording of the whole incident, and George's reaction was great relief."

A ************** isn't going to say "oh crap" to hear that. Acting. That's what Z was doing.
 
Serino also told one on the witnesses' mother that he didn't think it was self defense.

This was one full week after the killing.
 
Little things like this that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

Fresh as a daisy clean, after suffering a severe death-defying beating at the hands of the slim jim just barely-seventeen Skittle carrier.

gwetjacketwithgrassstains.jpg



025_zpse74070a2.jpg


You'd think there might even be a few grass / dirt stains or scuffle marks on the back of the pant cuffs as he struggled to get free, what with the holding him down, pounding his head and telling him "tonight you're going to die ************" and all...

People who are being held down against their will dig their heels into the ground trying to gain leverage, but nope. Not Mr. Sparkly there.
 
Serino also told one on the witnesses' mother that he didn't think it was self defense.

This was one full week after the killing.

You choose to believe the hearsay of cheryl brown, I'll believe the words from the actual person himself.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency
Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.
The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/12/2892510/more-evidence-released-in-zimmerman.html
Telling the FBI that he was concerned that people inside the police department were leaking information, Serino cited Sgt. Arthur Barnes, officers Rebecca Villalona and Trekelle Perkins “as all pressuring him to file charges against Zimmerman after the incident,” an FBI report said. “Serino did not believe he had enough evidence at the time to file charges.”
 
Little things like this that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

Fresh as a daisy clean, after suffering a severe death-defying beating at the hands of the slim jim just barely-seventeen Skittle carrier.

[qimg]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/misszandra/trayvon/gwetjacketwithgrassstains.jpg[/qimg]


[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/025_zpse74070a2.jpg?t=1363693085[/qimg]

You'd think there might even be a few grass / dirt stains or scuffle marks on the back of the pant cuffs as he struggled to get free, what with the holding him down, pounding his head and telling him "tonight you're going to die ************" and all...

People who are being held down against their will dig their heels into the ground trying to gain leverage, but nope. Not Mr. Sparkly there.

Yes, clearly he was just having all the witnesses on when he was laying on his back screaming for help. :rolleyes:
 
Little things like this that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

Fresh as a daisy clean, after suffering a severe death-defying beating at the hands of the slim jim just barely-seventeen Skittle carrier.

[qimg]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/misszandra/trayvon/gwetjacketwithgrassstains.jpg[/qimg]


[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/025_zpse74070a2.jpg?t=1363693085[/qimg]

You'd think there might even be a few grass / dirt stains or scuffle marks on the back of the pant cuffs as he struggled to get free, what with the holding him down, pounding his head and telling him "tonight you're going to die ************" and all...

People who are being held down against their will dig their heels into the ground trying to gain leverage, but nope. Not Mr. Sparkly there.

What is the source of those photos?
 
I think there are so many intricacies and ways things can play out in an extremely hectic physical confrontation like this, that it isn't necessarily helpful to laser focus in on specific elements which may confuse us at a glance and give them too much weight.

Something I remember from the Casey Anthony (the only other one I've followed really closely) case is that there are a lot of weird things or misreporting and misunderstanding that is later cleared up more at trial.

The reason I believe something fairly similar to what Zimmerman describes is what happened, are because of some of the key "pillars" of the evidence, as I see them. If I was going to flip my opinion on this case around (as I did once already, I spent the first week or so after I heard about it thinking Zimmerman was a monster) it would require something pretty stupendous, to get past the following:

  • What Witness 6 saw
  • What Witness 11 heard
  • The ballistics
  • Zimmerman's injuries
  • The elapsed time on the call after GZ believes TM to be long gone, and further elapsed time before any 911 calls.
  • The screams, which I feel are recognizably in Zimmerman's voice, and which I believe all logical thought points toward being his.

For me, these are nearly insurmountable. Even if we knock off the last one, which I realize may be controversial to some. (Though frankly I'm sort of amazed anyone still questions that it was him screaming after the injury photos came out)

Btw, just as an aside... I'm not 100% new to the site. I have been aware of James Randi for a very long time, and a big admirer of his as well. I first came to this site years and years ago, and may even have created a profile at that time. I really don't recall, but if I did it was with a now defunct e-mail address, etc. I don't believe I posted at that time more than a couple times (if at all)

I think if there is one angle to this whole case that I could really see James Randi picking apart, it would probably be Tom Owen, the voice analyst.
 
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No, they will because even though Rare Truth removed the erroroneous post, it's quoted in the very next post by Unabogie in which the error was pointed out, which Rare Truth in turned acknowledged before correcting his mistake.

And all this happened before you came along.

It's deja vu all over again.

ROTFLMAO. Unless, of course, Unabogie edits his post for some reason.


 
Actually, it's incredibly stupid and insulting but don't let that stop you from using that term. I do want the truth to come out but we don't have all the facts yet. Since you have no dog in this fight, it seems a little extreme to call people names.

Since when did attorneys become exempt from name calling? I've seen quite a few nasty variations on Crump's name out here and I never complained. I just figured it was the price of fame.

Name calling posters or ridiculing their presentation of information has always been off limits here. (possible exceptions made for Big Foot and September 11) I don't think the active discussion of a case in which a 17 yo unarmed young man was shot and killed, is a time for ridicule and name calling of forum members.

And now you know why I asked you if it was just certain people (TM) who shouldn't be called names.

And now we see why you dodged the question.

Calling MOM names doesn't reflect poorly on MOM, but on the maturity level of the poster, IMHO.
 
ROTFLMAO. Unless, of course, Unabogie edits his post for some reason.


With that post I was tempted to report you for incivility. But then, maybe you have an explanation for how that is relevant to the discussion topic of this thread. Do you want to explain why you are posting that?
 
...

The reason I believe something fairly similar to what Zimmerman describes is what happened, are because of some of the key "pillars" of the evidence, as I see them. If I was going to flip my opinion on this case around (as I did once already, I spent the first week or so after I heard about it thinking Zimmerman was a monster) it would require something pretty stupendous, to get past the following:

  • What Witness 6 saw
  • What Witness 11 heard
  • The ballistics
  • Zimmerman's injuries
  • The elapsed time on the call after GZ believes TM to be long gone, and further elapsed time before any 911 calls.
  • The screams, which I feel are recognizably in Zimmerman's voice, and which I believe all logical thought points toward being his.

For me, these are nearly insurmountable. Even if we knock off the last one, which I realize may be controversial to some. (Though frankly I'm sort of amazed anyone still questions that it was him screaming after the injury photos came out)
...
Every one of those bullet points are far, far from insurmountable. There are plenty of other witness testimony to be heard.
Witness 6 (did you hear the 45 minutes interview of W6 with FDLE?) is not nearly as strong as you might have thought he was, and notes often and strongly, he only saw out his door for literally a few seconds, and it was very dark.

The ballistics DO NOT comport with Z's story. Totally mountable.

The injuries DO NOT comport with Z's story. Totally mountable.

The elapsed time? How is that insurmountable? If anything, it hurts him.
Two minutes after hanging up the kid is dead.

Creepy guy chases after a kid he thought was armed and drugged and the cops are on their way, it's dark, he said he was afraid to walk back without light...after the 311 call ended...why wouldn't he stay on the phone with 311 till he got back to his truck?
Why did he concoct a story about street names and forgetting the name of the street he lived on?

Zimmerman had been following Martin. Witness 8 describes how TM characterized him as "creepy" ...a creepy, crazy man following him.

TM said why are you following me?

in GZ's version,it's hey what's your problem, man?

At that point Z reached into his pocket - how does TM not know the creepy man isn't reaching for a gun?

TM was in fear of his life. Doesn't he merit a Stand Your Ground defense?


Yep. Z's story. Physical and forensic evidence. No comport.

Totally mountable.
 
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Hi SkepticTank, and welcome to the lion's den. :)

A few questions/issues with the points you brought up:

What Witness 6 saw
Could you elaborate?

What Witness 11 heard
Could you elaborate?

Zimmerman's injuries
Zimmerman had a broken nose, and minor abrasions, most too insignificant to be noted in the medical documentation.

Martin had one tiny abrasion on the knuckle of one hand.

What about those injuries leads you to the conclusion that Martin punched Zimmerman several times?

Zimmerman had two small cuts on the back of his head, no skull fractures, and no concussion.

What about those injuries leads you to the conclusion that Martin repeatedly slammed Zimmerman's head into the pavement?

The screams, which I feel are recognizably in Zimmerman's voice, and which I believe all logical thought points toward being his.
This one hasn't been brought up very much, because it has yet to be conclusively settled. But I'm glad you mentioned it, because there has been something regarding those screams I've been meaning to address.

First, let's listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8HYZXg0UQs

Is that guy in fear? Definitely. In fear for his life? Possibly. In reasonable fear for his life? Absolutely not.

And that brings us back to Zimmerman, because the law demands one must be in reasonable fear for one's life before one can use deadly force to defend it.

So I'd be curious to know how someone can listen to those screams on that 911 call and conclusively ascertain the person screaming was in reasonable fear for his life.
 
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Originally Posted by SkepticTank
...
For me, these are nearly insurmountable. Even if we knock off the last one, which I realize may be controversial to some. (Though frankly I'm sort of amazed anyone still questions that it was him screaming after the injury photos came out)

Those little scratches? Phhht. Not even enough to warrant a bandaid, or a visit to the ER, which GZ refused three times that night.

One more thing, on the screams for help.


The screams stopped the moment the gun was fired - and yet GZ (who is supposed to be the one yelling) thinks TM is not even dead. He didn't think he shot him. He still saw him as a threat. He tells us so.

There's no getting around that detail without coming to the conclusion it was likely not GZ screaming for help.

If anything it was TWO voices screaming. That was mentioned in one of the hearings by the prosecution.

Be amazed. Lot's of people think it was TM that was the primary screamer, and that includes people who were there that night.
 
Hi Rare Truth, may I point out a couple things from an earlier post of yours?

Hi, and welcome.

Recall that the apparent result of the tapping of the flashlight, was George coming to the conclusion that it wasn't working. In an interview with Serino, the detective himself acknowledges that he interacted with the same flashlight and found it to be inoperable or nearly so.

As Rare Truth pointed out, that's not accurate. I interpreted Serino as basically agreeing with everything George said to keep him talking. He did that a lot, and I don't think you should put stock in that.

I consider it extremely likely that, upon failing to get it to work or work reliably, George put it in his jacket pocket where it later fell out from.

The jacket pocket where his phone was, because it wasn't in his pocket where he always keeps it? Put a few elements together. He was carrying a key chain, a gun, a phone, and a flashlight. The thing he was carrying at the time of the fight would be the first thing dropped. The flashlight was found by the victim's phone, which a witness describes as sounding as though it were dropped as the fight started. That's quite a coincidence for them to end up right next to each other, 50 feet from where George says the fight started.

Isn't it also possible that (only several hours later, the next day, on VERY little sleep) going back to the location of the even itself jogged George's memory a bit? Remember, he volunteers himself the information "I don't remember exactly... I think... I stumbled, somehow he got on top of me" and walks southward with the detectives as he briefly reenacts the motions of fending someone off. It's not as if the detectives were grilling him about "How'd you get so far south!" and he just pulled something out of nowhere to explain it... he was back at the scene, which I think anyone would agree could be a good way to trigger additional detail in his memory (which is precisely why the police took him there, after all) and he volunteered this himself.

He was very specific about this in two separate interviews and a written statement. In all three of those, he was hit once, went immediately down, then was set upon.

The fact that upon seeing the physical impossibility of what he originally claimed happening he then changed his story isn't "jogging" of memory to me. It's a self serving attempt to lie himself out of a jamb.
What is your explanation of why he didn't mention this the night before in initial interviews with detectives? Is there a more reasonable or logical explanation than that he was struggling to remember the fine details of a very fast, hectic, traumatic event?

He remembered plenty of details. Listen to his statement. He even remembered every bit of dialogue. And he was doing this while listening to his own 311 call. Why didn't that jog his memory?

If George is indeed such a criminal mastermind as a lot of people seem to imply... lying about nearly everything, to hear them tell it (I even saw Unabogie implying George had the presence of mind and wherewithal to instantly plant evidence north at the "T" after the shooting, George "Jason Bourne" Zimmerman apparently...) then I can't help but wonder why he wouldn't also be prepared to lie about how they got so far south during initial interviews?

Hold on here, this is totally off. I never said he planted evidence. What I said was that he was looking for a weapon. We know he thought the victim had one because he said "he's got something in his waistband" before he chased him. Now once he shot him, a witness saw him patting the body down. My guess is he was looking for a weapon and only found that ice tea can. So he got up, no longer with the flashlight in hand (it was dark, so he didn't know where it went), took out his keys, and started looking for something on the ground. The witnesses saw him walk up toward the T where he was arrested. I think that's when and why he dropped the keys. They were in his hand and when cops show up with guns drawn, you drop everything if you don't want to get shot.

If it's no thing to him to lie about it the next day at the scene... why not lie the night before? Why not lie every time he gives his account, and just simply say "Then I stumbled southward and he was grappling with me, and eventually he brought me down." - it seems a very trivial thing for such a supposedly accomplished and thorough liar to do.

He did lie that night. That's his problem and that's why he was charged.Many of the details, such as "circling the car" and doubling back to intimidate George are impossible if you listen to the 311 call. They happen too fast to have occurred where he said they did. I don't think he's a good liar at all. Did you see the stunt he and his wife pulled at the bond hearing? With the code words and the bank transfers? They think they're smarter than they are. That doesn't mean they didn't lie, does it?

I personally consider it a far better explanation to say that this man with a flawed human memory, perhaps a particularly flawed one (what with his ADHD etc) was struggling to remember every detail of those frantic moments.

And we should keep this in mind when Witness 8 is called. Since a flawed human memory can't be expected to get every detail right. ;)

In George's case, every flaw in his memory just coincidentally painted himself in a light that made him look innocent. Like how he mistakenly told the dispatcher he was following the victim and then told Serino how he was not following, just going in the same direction looking for an address which he never noted, never found, and never gave to the dispatcher. Or how he said the dispatcher told him to chase the suspect when the recording shows no such thing. Or how he said he was afraid of the dark when we demonstrated here that his brand of vehicle's lights would have been out when he walked towards Retreat View Circle from his truck, meaning he wasn't afraid of the dark until he used that as an excuse for why the 311 call timeline doesn't match a story of a guy who walked to get an address and then walked back.

I don't think this is flawed memory. I think this is a guy trying to lie about the fact that he chased the "suspect" when he shouldn't have, tried to detain him for the police, which caused the fight. It's not totally wrong, it's just embellished to cut out his actions which he knows will hurt him, while adding dialogue and threatening actions to make the victim seem scarier.

Here's the most likely explanation of all. A slightly paranoid, wannabe cop, with a history of anger and violence issues, and a history of calling the cops on young black kids at the drop of a hat, mistakenly thinks a kid going to the store is up to no good. He calls the cops for no good reason, follows him, gets angry ("*********** punks", "these ******** always get away"), finds him, and the scared kid punches him. He loses his cool and shoots him.

There's nothing extraordinary about any of this, and it fits reality much better than a 17 year kid coming home to watch the Allstar Game who suddenly tries to murder a stranger for no reason at all.
 
~~~

In George's case, every flaw in his memory just coincidentally painted himself in a light that made him look innocent. Like how he mistakenly told the dispatcher he was following the victim and then told Serino how he was not following, just going in the same direction looking for an address which he never noted, never found, and never gave to the dispatcher. .

George's view, just before he enters the T

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/Uther2/03front1211.jpg
 
Those little scratches? Phhht. Not even enough to warrant a bandaid, or a visit to the ER, which GZ refused three times that night.

If it didn't warrant a visit, why was he offered to be taken 3 times ?

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/17/nation/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517
“There were two lacerations at the back of his head, one deeper than the other,” another responder said during her interview. “We cleaned him up and got them to stop bleeding.”

She said Zimmerman complained of feeling dizzy at one point and seemed impaired. Both responders said they thought police would take Zimmerman to a hospital for stitches to his head.


So the EMTs on the scene thought GZ was going to be taken to the hospital, versus "Phhht" from an Internet poster.

One more thing, on the screams for help.

The screams stopped the moment the gun was fired - and yet GZ (who is supposed to be the one yelling) thinks TM is not even dead. He didn't think he shot him. He still saw him as a threat. He tells us so.

There's no getting around that detail without coming to the conclusion it was likely not GZ screaming for help.

If anything it was TWO voices screaming. That was mentioned in one of the hearings by the prosecution.

Be amazed. Lot's of people think it was TM that was the primary screamer, and that includes people who were there that night.

Unless we are doing voice identification based on popularity, it really doesn't matter if "Lot's of people think it was TM that was the primary screamer", does it ?

It wasn't TM screaming, according to Tracy Martin.
It wasn't TM screaming according to Serino and the police report report.
 
It's possible.

When he interacted with Serino the night of the kill, in the very first few words of his first interview, the Detective did find it operable.

CS: Okay, um, you follow this person, this person, you lose sight of this person, you’re walking in the darkness out there…you have a flashlight?
GZ: It was dead. I had one, but it was dead.
CS: Uh, you had to hit it couple times, it’s on right now. So…
GZ: Oh it is?

Without further information, we don't know.

GZ had two flashlights on him that night though, the large "tactical" one (Rocky brand, I believe), which was the one found closer to the body, and the much smaller one attached to his keys, which is the one that was found illuminated (listed on the crime scene evidence diagram). So, which one was Serino referring to?

Also, watch this video here, it is an individual's review of what appears to be the same flashlight GZ was using, and notice how this person talks about having difficulties getting his flashlight working as well. The upload date of the video was well before the incident, so it's not some conspired video made to support GZ or anything. Skip ahead to 0:50 to get to the part he mentions it malfunctioning.

watch?v=iGGDu3Ehx0s

I can't share links yet, so just copy/past the above link into Google or Youtube search.
 
You'd think there might even be a few grass / dirt stains or scuffle marks on the back of the pant cuffs as he struggled to get free, what with the holding him down, pounding his head and telling him "tonight you're going to die ************" and all...

People who are being held down against their will dig their heels into the ground trying to gain leverage, but nope. Not Mr. Sparkly there.

Well, what was the "ground" there? It was thick (probably St. Augustine), rain-slicked grass. How much "dirt" was there for him to dig into? What sort of stains were you expecting on denim, on such slippery, wet grass?

I notice a lot of absolutes being thrown around in this entire incident, as if because something expected (with no expertise on the matter) isn't present, it is indicative of something, especially something that points to GZ's story being fabricated.
 
Yes, there are many reasons to doubt that story. Isn't it much more likely that a guy who was pursuing a "suspect", and cussed about him getting away, continued to pursue him?

Does anyone still buy the story that he was looking for an address? Is there any evidence to support that? At all?

Zimmerman also specifically told police he was looking for a street sign.

Street signs are typically located on the street, and not in the backyard areas behind houses.
 
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