Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

In all this Rare Truth truthiness, I should point out

Rare Truth is a chick.

A really smart, hawt chick.

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/icon_mrgreen_zpsef9f1d93.gif[/qimg]

That's what everyone says on the internet.

 

[Rare Truth]

That's what everyone says on the internet.

 

[Rare Truth]

In the Motion to Reconsider...a glaring O'Mara oo-boo:

In sum, the Defendant requests this Court to reconsider and clarify its finding that Mr. Crump is "opposing counsel" for purposes of this deposition, as there are no pending actions between any client of Mr. Crump and Mr. Zimmerman...(p. 17, bottom)

A few pages earlier, he cites this as legal precedent...

"The court ruled that even though the documents were prepared before counsel was retained, "documents are subject to the work product privilege even when litigation is neither pending nor threatened so long as there is a possibility that a suit might ensue." (p. 8, top)

Ooops.

 

[Rare Truth]

I'm thinking Judge Nelson is going to chew the head off O'MyMy and his team if they have not deposed W8 by now.

ALL that information they are squawking about can be asked of the witness.

She was pretty damn peeved with them last time, and now they are pulling this ****?

ASK THE DAMN WITNESS O'MARA!

Geezum. Does she have to open face slap them or something?

Talk about going out of your way to piss off a judge.

 

[johnny karate]

Really all that happened before I came along and posted this , 2 posts before his acknowledgement ?

Are you sure ? Or are you just playing the cover-up agent for Rare Truth again ?

What is there to cover up?

It's all out there for everyone to see.

Including the fact that you didn't catch or mention Rare Truth's error until after it had been acknowledged and rectified.

 

[johnny karate]

In all this Rare Truth truthiness, I should point out

Rare Truth is a chick.

A really smart, hawt chick.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/icon_mrgreen_zpsef9f1d93.gif

My apologies, ma'am.

 

[Rare Truth]

My apologies, ma'am.

Nothing to apologize for.

I didn't correct it right off.

Therefore calamity!

Fainting couches, imminent pearl clutching fever ignites!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

In the Motion to Reconsider...a glaring O'Mara oo-boo:
In sum, the Defendant requests this Court to reconsider and clarify its finding that Mr. Crump is "opposing counsel" for purposes of this deposition, as there are no pending actions between any client of Mr. Crump and Mr. Zimmerman...(p. 17, bottom)

A few pages earlier, he cites this as legal precedent..."
The court ruled that even though the documents were prepared before counsel was retained, "documents are subject to the work product privilege even when litigation is neither pending nor threatened so long as there is a possibility that a suit might ensue." (p. 8, top)

Ooops.

There is no error there. Just your mis-reading. Again....

 

[Rare Truth]

Let's see how far it takes Mr. O'MyMy.

Kay?

You've been wrong about 321 other things so far. Maybe you'll hit it this time.

With a bullet!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Let's see how far it takes Mr. O'MyMy.

Name calling. That's mature

Kay?

Who ?

You've been wrong about 321 other things so far. Maybe you'll hit it this time.

With a bullet!

That's mighty funny considering the nonsense you've just been posting

 

[12AX7]

You realize, of course, someone is going to see your original post, ignore this one, and all hell is going to break loose over what a liar you are.

If only they were that indignant over George's lies.

 

[KatieG]

Since when did attorneys become exempt from name calling? I've seen quite a few nasty variations on Crump's name out here and I never complained. I just figured it was the price of fame.

Name calling posters or ridiculing their presentation of information has always been off limits here. (possible exceptions made for Big Foot and September 11) I don't think the active discussion of a case in which a 17 yo unarmed young man was shot and killed, is a time for ridicule and name calling of forum members.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Hi Rare Truth, may I point out a couple things from an earlier post of yours?

George talks about tapping his flashlight at around the T - he had it out, we know it was in his hand

...

Now (here's where it gets hinky...) what we would have to believe, is that whole time he was knocked down, rumbling, rolling, being pummeled...he's still holding his flashlight that had been in his hand?

Recall that the apparent result of the tapping of the flashlight, was George coming to the conclusion that it wasn't working. In an interview with Serino, the detective himself acknowledges that he interacted with the same flashlight and found it to be inoperable or nearly so.

I consider it extremely likely that, upon failing to get it to work or work reliably, George put it in his jacket pocket where it later fell out from.

He later tells (when he realizes he has to make some adjustments to that story) investigators, he pushed him away, or he "stumbled" and next thing TM is on top of him.

Isn't it also possible that (only several hours later, the next day, on VERY little sleep) going back to the location of the even itself jogged George's memory a bit? Remember, he volunteers himself the information "I don't remember exactly... I think... I stumbled, somehow he got on top of me" and walks southward with the detectives as he briefly reenacts the motions of fending someone off. It's not as if the detectives were grilling him about "How'd you get so far south!" and he just pulled something out of nowhere to explain it... he was back at the scene, which I think anyone would agree could be a good way to trigger additional detail in his memory (which is precisely why the police took him there, after all) and he volunteered this himself.

What is your explanation of why he didn't mention this the night before in initial interviews with detectives? Is there a more reasonable or logical explanation than that he was struggling to remember the fine details of a very fast, hectic, traumatic event?

If George is indeed such a criminal mastermind as a lot of people seem to imply... lying about nearly everything, to hear them tell it (I even saw Unabogie implying George had the presence of mind and wherewithal to instantly plant evidence north at the "T" after the shooting, George "Jason Bourne" Zimmerman apparently...) then I can't help but wonder why he wouldn't also be prepared to lie about how they got so far south during initial interviews?

If it's no thing to him to lie about it the next day at the scene... why not lie the night before? Why not lie every time he gives his account, and just simply say "Then I stumbled southward and he was grappling with me, and eventually he brought me down." - it seems a very trivial thing for such a supposedly accomplished and thorough liar to do.

I personally consider it a far better explanation to say that this man with a flawed human memory, perhaps a particularly flawed one (what with his ADHD etc) was struggling to remember every detail of those frantic moments.

 

[This is The End]

Hello SkepticTank, welcome to the forums. We're glad to have you.

Could someone refresh my memory. Aren't there 2 flashlights? I seem to remember something about a key-chain flashlight as well... Were they both used that night?

 

[Rare Truth]

Hi Rare Truth, may I point out a couple things from an earlier post of yours?

Recall that the apparent result of the tapping of the flashlight, was George coming to the conclusion that it wasn't working. In an interview with Serino, the detective himself acknowledges that he interacted with the same flashlight and found it to be inoperable or nearly so.

I consider it extremely likely that, upon failing to get it to work or work reliably, George put it in his jacket pocket where it later fell out from.

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

It's possible.

When he interacted with Serino the night of the kill, in the very first few words of his first interview, the Detective did find it operable.

CS: Okay, um, you follow this person, this person, you lose sight of this person, you’re walking in the darkness out there…you have a flashlight?
GZ: It was dead. I had one, but it was dead.
CS: Uh, you had to hit it couple times, it’s on right now. So…
GZ: Oh it is?

Without further information, we don't know.

Isn't it also possible that (only several hours later, the next day, on VERY little sleep) going back to the location of the even itself jogged George's memory a bit? Remember, he volunteers himself the information "I don't remember exactly... I think... I stumbled, somehow he got on top of me" and walks southward with the detectives as he briefly reenacts the motions of fending someone off. It's not as if the detectives were grilling him about "How'd you get so far south!" and he just pulled something out of nowhere to explain it... he was back at the scene, which I think anyone would agree could be a good way to trigger additional detail in his memory (which is precisely why the police took him there, after all) and he volunteered this himself.

What is your explanation of why he didn't mention this the night before in initial interviews with detectives? Is there a more reasonable or logical explanation than that he was struggling to remember the fine details of a very fast, hectic, traumatic event?

His best buddy Osterman, the one who picked him up that night, and was there -- the one who was a former Sheriff's deputy, the one other Sanford cops knew, the one who looked to Chief Lee as a "father figure" very easily could have culled details from where the body was located.

Or he could have, you know, watched the Channel 10 (<- could be wrong on the channel #) News where the investigative crew was all gathered around and still had not transported the body, in those first few reports.

Or his wife could have seen it, or one or two conversations with anyone there (a community can get pretty chatty when a homicide happens outside your doors)...

Anything. Location of the body is a pretty significant aspect of a case.

I'm inclined to go with Osterman though.

Flashback:

Air marshal took Zimmerman in after shooting

The federal agent, a former Seminole County Sheriff’s deputy, accompanied George Zimmerman to police interrogations after the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, and let him stay at his home.

In the height of the national outcry over the shooting of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman hid out for over a month in nearby Lake Mary at the home of a man prosecutors say is federal law-enforcement agent — a former Seminole County Sheriff’s deputy who was pressured to quit after he was duped by a con artist.

Osterman rushed to the scene that night, and accompanied his best friend every step of the way through the investigation, including his first three interrogations by Sanford police.

"Osterman says he was quickly recognized by cops on the scene"

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html#storylink=cpy

Z had already been released and and whaddaya know, during that reenactment, Osterman was there.

The record shows Osterman also accompanied Zimmerman for a video walk-through of the shooting scene with police, and went to his third interview with Sanford Det. Chris Serino. In a police surveillance camera video shot three days after the killing, Osterman can be seen standing in the police lobby and going up the stairs.

In his FBI statement, Serino said Zimmerman sounded “scripted.”

...

If George is indeed such a criminal mastermind as a lot of people seem to imply... lying about nearly everything, to hear them tell it (I even saw Unabogie implying George had the presence of mind and wherewithal to instantly plant evidence north at the "T" after the shooting, George "Jason Bourne" Zimmerman apparently...) then I can't help but wonder why he wouldn't also be​

If it's no thing to him to lie about it the next day at the scene... why not lie the night before? Why not lie every time he gives his account, and just simply say "Then I stumbled southward and he was grappling with me, and eventually he brought me down." - it seems a very trivial thing for such a supposedly accomplished and thorough liar to do.

Who has called him a "criminal mastermind?"​

He's a cop wanna-be with serious psychological issues, who had to be medicated with psychotropic drugs / uppers and downers just to get through the day.

The thing about ********artists is they have to adjust stories to meet evolving information. George did that well. You can see him work through the ******** on the tape. He knew exactly what he needed to say to make the self-defense plea stick.

In his FBI statement, Serino said Zimmerman sounded “scripted.”

...

I personally consider it a far better explanation to say that this man with a flawed human memory, perhaps a particularly flawed one (what with his ADHD etc) was struggling to remember every detail of those frantic moments.

Oh, he was struggling alright.

Zimmerman was back at the complex the next morning. With Osterman's help and a few conversations with residents and cops, it's not difficult to understand how Z knew he needed to...write the script.

 

[Rare Truth]

Hello SkepticTank, welcome to the forums. We're glad to have you.

Could someone refresh my memory. Aren't there 2 flashlights? I seem to remember something about a key-chain flashlight as well... Were they both used that night?

Yes. Both were found at the crime scene.

Flashlight on key chain near the T.

6" Tactical flashlight near body.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Thanks for the welcome.

With regard to Serino saying Zimmerman sounded "scripted" I just wanted to say that I find it entirely reasonable that he would talk the whole thing through with his friend who had a law enforcement background, and run through the details.

I think a person can feel extremely guilty about something like what GZ did, have a lot of self-doubts about it... need a lot of bolstering from a friend, and even go through the details of what happened repeatedly with that friend, and lock onto key points to emphasize or phrases to repeat when next he speaks with officers, and end up sounding very scripted...

I don't find that to be indicative of actual criminal guilt at all.

I think GZ's biggest mistake was not doing even more of this, specifically with the aid of an actual attorney.

Though, personally, having listened to all of GZ's statements, etc... I've never thought he sounded particularly scripted. Isn't one of the biggest complaints people have about his accounts that they vary? So is he scripted, or is he all over the place with supposed inconsistencies? These seem at odds with one another.

I've always thought he sounded very open and off the cuff, and like someone genuinely trying to cooperate fully. I think that cooperation went above and beyond what a suspect would normally do. An on scene walkthrough reenactment? Two voice stress tests? Several interviews? A (ham-fisted on the part of SPD) scream recreation recording session? Even expressed willingness to drive his own car down to Jacksonville to meet with the new prosecutors brought in from another county...

I think GZ honestly thought the truth of what had happened and his willingness to honestly recite it, as well as his fallible memory permitted, to the police as many times and in as many ways as they desired... would see him through. In some respects, it did. After all, the initial prosecutor declined to bring charges right? And the SPD itself, despite some internal back and forth, ultimately settled on not charging him, right?

Little did GZ know, giving multiple statements would create a cottage industry of mining them for supposed inconsistencies and lies, most or all of which I've seen people talk about seem to me to be well within the normal range of human memory and conversational spontaneity.

I do not believe a guilty man who intended to lie on several key points about what had happened that night would behave in that way, would be so open with the investigation... unless he was a criminal mastermind with supreme confidence in his ability to indefinitely deceive the entire criminal justice system.

George Zimmerman does not strike me as nearly that intelligent, that confident, or that conversationally adept.

I think if he was guilty of something, and conscious of that guilt, he would have exaggerated the severity of his wounds and insisted on a trip to the hospital, buying himself hours to get his story straight in his own head before he was questioned. I also think he would have lawyered up, and clammed up.

 

[Rare Truth]

The lead detective didn't buy his story. He wanted to charge him with Murder.

Lee and Wolfinger intervened.

Both Lee and Wolfinger are gone now.

 

[Rare Truth]

By the way, Zimmerman's wife has her Perjury hearing coming up soon.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I consider the saga of what Chris Serino thought about what happened that night, and what should happen to George as a result, to be very unclear and convoluted at this point. We have things about his paperwork undergoing several changes... we have what he told the FBI about feeling pressured to file charges, and specifically being pressured by fellow officers with a racial angle on the case...

I think a lot of the harshest things people latch onto that Serino said to GZ during interviews with him can be attributed to that very common police tactic of gauging the person's reaction by coming at them with various postures. Remember, Serino implied to GZ that there was a video recording of the whole incident, and George's reaction was great relief.

Again, I consider that whole saga to still be very unclear currently... and all I can say is that I look forward to him getting on the stand during the trial.