Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Well I suppose that the people who fire rockets into Israel are technically Gaza residents.
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Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2
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Praktik
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I wish they would refer to them as "The Resistance".
Extract:
Nearly four months after the image was circulated worldwide, a U.N. commission has concluded that Israel was not directly responsible for the child’s death.
But not unequivocally that is:
Matthias Behnke, head of OHCHR office for the Palestinian territories, cautioned he couldn’t “unequivocally conclude” that the death was caused by an errantly fired Palestinian rocket. He said information gathered from eyewitnesses led them to report that “it appeared to be attributable to a Palestinian rocket.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...355134-8b53-11e2-b63f-f53fb9f2fcb4_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...355134-8b53-11e2-b63f-f53fb9f2fcb4_story.html
Some more info on why this is not so clear cut:
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/palestinian-responsible-maintains.html
Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
It's called "resistance fighting" here at home... except when it's not Israelis being killed, of course. Nobody hesitated calling Breivik a terrorist
.Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
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It's called "resistance fighting" here at home... except when it's not Israelis being killed, of course. Nobody hesitated calling Breivik a terrorist
That's quaint. I wonder what it's called when FARC chainsaws the head off a kidnapping victim even after the ransom is paid.
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
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Long as it's "terrorist" in both cases, groovy.
sarge
Penultimate Amazing
Are you asking for evidence that the State of Israel kills residents of Gaza, routinely? Your post can be interpreted to mean that you do not believe this to be the case.
Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
No, but you're making it sound as if they kill civilians deliberately or recklessly. Killing civilians isn't "routine", it's a tragic byproduct of war that the Israelis try their best to avoid.
To try to equivocate this with terrorists deliberately killing civilians is either ignorant or manipulative.
Praktik
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At all times? They try their best at all times? or is it inevitable that a decades long occupation will see plenty of incidents where the IDF falls short of its stated values?
This whitewashing is just as manipulative as what you are decrying.
This whitewashing is just as manipulative as what you are decrying.
"falls short of its stated values" does not sound like "routine" to me, which is what sarge claimed the frequency of Israelis killing Palestinians is. "Routine" indicates "as a matter of course". It the stated values of Israel is to avoid killing, then killing only when it "falls short" is not "routine".
Praktik
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I'm just saying the fact Israel is ostensibly a liberal democracy cannot be used as a white flag to wash away the blood of the hundreds of palestinians killed and injured every year due to Israeli munitions. There will be "routine" acts of cruelty if you are engaged in a decades long occupation that requires a "routine" application of force to maintain. This is why many see a contradiction between the Western values largely shared between Israel and allies in Europe and America and the maintenance of a long-term occupation. This was recognized in a must-see documentary making the rounds that interviewed 6 former heads of Shin-Bet called The Gatekeepers, where the guys in charge of combating Palestinian terror threats said Israel has become "cruel" and that the occupation threatens the "soul" of Israel.
These guys did not say that because Israel has some good values that every Palestinian death can be explained away as a tragedy borne of good intentions gone awry.
Coming to grips with this is important and helps us bring these debates out of the Manichaean framework of good vs evil and into the grey areas that shade the actions of both sides to this interminable war.
Ah, so it was a non sequitur.
That's a weird definition of "routine" you are using to push an agenda.
I find that ironic from someone who is twisting words to make it defend the notion that Israelis kill Palestinians as a matter of routine.
Pointing out that Israeli does not routinely kill Palestinians is the nuance. Trying to paint Israeli killing of Palestinians as routine is Manichean.
I know you are but what am I!ddt
Mafia Penguin
So, over a 44-month period, according to that site, 77 Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities were killed by Israeli security forces. And that's a "routine"?
I guess witha word as vague as "routine", any amount of killings might be defined as such.
I guess witha word as vague as "routine", any amount of killings might be defined as such.
sarge
Penultimate Amazing
Nope. That is your misinterpretation.
An occurence happens "routinely" if it happens more than infrequently. Israel kills civilian residents of Gaza often. That they (usually) take reasonable precautions against doing so indescriminately doesn't change the fact that Israel routinely kills civilians.
I made no such equivocation. There is nothing in my post that a reasonable reader would interpret as me equating Israels killing of Gazan civilians with Hamas' killing of Israeli civilians.
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