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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Actually, I think the claim is that Trayvon would not have attempted to murder someone for no reason, because he had no history of aggression. I don't think anyone thinks it's impossible he took a pop at the creepy man who followed him and got out of his truck to chase after him while he did nothing wrong.

Where the two narratives diverge is that George claims that Marting jumped out of the bushes and immediately began to try and kill him, including verbally saying he wanted to kill him. That's the part that's unbelievable for us.

I'm talking about the claims that it's impossible that TM decided to circle back around and kick this *******'s butt for having the temerity to follow him. I don't believe myself that TM deliberately set out to kill Z.



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Edited for Rule 10. Do not try to work around the autocensor.
 
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I'm talking about the claims that it's impossible that TM decided to circle back around and kick this *******'s butt for having the temerity to follow him. I don't believe myself that TM deliberately set out to kill Z.

Then you doubt that George told the truth, because his claim is that Martin attacked him with no provocation, even after him saying he "had no problem", and then tried to smother him and kill him, right?

Do you believe Martin said the words "you're gonna die tonight, ************?"
 
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Then you doubt that George told the truth, because his claim is that Martin attacked him with no provocation, even after him saying he "had no problem", and then tried to smother him and kill him, right?

Do you believe Martin said the words "you're gonna die tonight, ************?"

No, I don't necessarily believe he said that.
 
No, I don't necessarily believe he said that.

That's what I think is the biggest problem for the defense. In almost every instance where he was asked to describe the incident, he added embellishments intended to make himself look blameless and the victim look aggressive. Sure, we can't KNOW who swung first, but if you and I can agree that the defendant told untruths in order to evade responsibility, then that's something juries tend to dislike immensely. I served on one jury, and in that case, it was the police officer who lied about someone they pulled over for a suspected DUI. People were madder at the cop for lying to them than for the guy who may or may not have been tipsy while driving.

Granted, one embellishment won't make a big difference, but if you can start piling them up, then people will start to turn on him in a big way.
 
I'm talking about the claims that it's impossible that TM decided to circle back around and kick this *******'s butt for having the temerity to follow him. I don't believe myself that TM deliberately set out to kill Z.

I do not beleive TM planned on attacking or killing GZ, it was GZ stalking TM based on nothing but suspicion
 
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I'm talking about the claims that it's impossible that TM decided to circle back around and kick this *******'s butt for having the temerity to follow him. I don't believe myself that TM deliberately set out to kill Z.

And as Unabogie correctly pointed out, it's not the former which is at stake, but rather the latter.

Zimmerman doesn't give an account of someone simply starting a fight with him.

He gives an account of someone willfully and brutally trying to murder him.

So I very much look forward to seeing what in Martin's school records will be an indicator that he was a violent murderer.
 
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And as Unabogie correctly pointed out, it's not the former which is at stake, but rather the latter.

Zimmerman doesn't give an account of someone simply starting a fight with him.

He gives an account of someone willfully and brutally trying to murder him.

So I very much look forward to seeing what in Martin's school records will be an indicator that he was a violent murderer.

What makes you think that would be found in his school record ?
 
What makes you think that would be found in his school record ?

I don't. I was being glib. My point being that I doubt there will be anything in Martin's school records that the defense can use to bolster Zimmerman's story. A few supposed fights do not a murderer make.
 
I'm sorry, I missed my exaggeration, hyperbole and arm waving. I just said:
As if one post is all that you made, seriously?
My understanding is the school records may apply if there are certain characteristics in them. Such as being aggressive.
Not unless they establish a pattern of conduct, which is what Munoz was adding clarity too. The school record as presented is hardly that.

As stated before, I believe it was done in discovery (probably not the correct term) so an appeal would not be made later.

Three suspensions is not going to make a conduct standard, especially without a criminal allegation of such conduct outside of school.
It is also my understanding that if the prosecution brings up TMs character, then it would be fair game for the defense. Likewise, if the defense brings up GZ character.
No, only if there is a reason to bring it up, you can not just go fishing where ever. Testimony that TM was known in his social environments for being aggressive would count for conduct testimony.
The school record does not meet that standard, as far as we know.
Just because the prosecution brings up something does not mean the defense can just bring in anything it want.
I didn't say it that it was the number of suspensions that would be the relevant part.
Then again perhaps you did not read the Munoz decision for application in a court, the only reason to allow something is if it is relevant to the conduct of an individual in the case.
The school record as it stands does not meet that bar.
I did actually read that same link as you, and thought this was the relevant part:
The purpose of introducing the reputation evidence in a self-defense case is to show that the victim was the initial aggressor. Pino, 389 So.2d at 1194. Reputation evidence is offered to show that the victim acted in conformity with a known character trait. Because reputation evidence relates to the conduct of the victim, the defendant is not required to have had prior knowledge of the victim's reputation in the community.
Pino is referenced more than once, the first reference has this clause:
:'As part of that foundation, the defendant must establish that the victim committed some overt act at or about the time of the incident that reasonably indicated a need for action by the defendant in self-defense. Id.; Sanchez v. State, 445 So.2d 1, 2 (Fla. 3d DCA 1984); Hager v. State, 439 So.2d 996, 997 (Fla. 4th DCA 1983).'

Second
'Once the proper foundation is laid, the defendant may introduce evidence of the victim's reputation or of specific instances of the victim's conduct. See § 90.405, Fla. Stat. (2009). There are, however, important distinctions and evidentiary requirements between reputation evidence and evidence of specific acts admitted under section 90.404(1)(b). Grace v. State, 832 So.2d 224, 226 (Fla. 2d DCA 2002); Pino, 389 So.2d at 1194.'

You seem to ignore the sentence right after the one you quote
'See Dwyer v. State, 743 So.2d 46, 48 (Fla. 5th DCA 1999) (holding that "a defendant who alleges self-defense can show, through the testimony of another witness, that the alleged victim had a propensity for violence, thereby inferring that the alleged victim was the aggressor.

None of what we know abou the school record would meet teh standard of teh clause of the following sentence to your quote
If the school records show any incidents that provide evidence of TM acting as an aggressor, i.e. starting fights, it seems they would be relevant.
Not really, having been the instigator of a fight at school would hardly meet the bar at all, you would have to have multiple avenues of evidence to establish the propensity for violence
If there is reputation evidence that shows TM to be aggressive, I think it may apply.

I disagree, seriously this was done to avoid grounds for an appeal, now if the defense subpoenas multiple people administrators, such as school mates of TM, and other community members and establish that TM had a pattern of conduct around the time of his death, that would meet the standard of Munoz.

And again I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this without the behavior common to this thread.
 
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Well thank goodness we have you here to bring us back on topic, which is the difference between male and female urine. Thank you for reminding us what's important.



Who said different? You're arguing against a straw man. I was simply pointing out a double standard from the people arguing that Trayvon's school records (or other unsubstantiated accusations) were relevant.



My last line about how schoolyard fights in junior high school are typically two people pushing each other and hitting weakly in order to save face? What does that have to do with the topic of this thread, which is urine?

Yet your comment tacked on, that I questioned was a non sequitor, it was not about the topic at hand which was the admission of evidence concerning TM, you just went to make a comment that was not really related and again just repeating something that you have probably said a couple hundred of times in the two long threads.

The same standards would apply to talking about GZ's history in court, and especially the allegation in the restraining order will not be likely to pass muster. Now testimony from the person who got the order would be relevant. Pushing a cop with intoxicated would again not be that likely.

Just as with TM there has to be a pattern to establish, I hardly see a history of violence in the reported acts of GZ.

Now just as with TM, if you get his neighbors to testify that he flipped out and threatened them over little things that would be relevant.
 
And as Unabogie correctly pointed out, it's not the former which is at stake, but rather the latter.

Zimmerman doesn't give an account of someone simply starting a fight with him.

He gives an account of someone willfully and brutally trying to murder him.

So I very much look forward to seeing what in Martin's school records will be an indicator that he was a violent murderer.

Hardly that, I believe again the evidence was opened to the defense to prevent future appeals. Now MOM may be canvassing all sorts of people about TM's behavior around the time of the incident, which would be relevant. The school record will hardly establish a propensity for violence.
 
As if one post is all that you made, seriously?.

No, not at all.
But most of those posts were not about what would be allowed at trial, but rather about character in general. There was some of what you described in those posts.

Not unless they establish a pattern of conduct, which is what Munoz was adding clarity too. The school record as presented is hardly that.

As stated before, I believe it was done in discovery (probably not the correct term) so an appeal would not be made later.

Three suspensions is not going to make a conduct standard, especially without a criminal allegation of such conduct outside of school.

Isn't the point that we have not seen the school records, so we don't know what's in them ? We haven't seen any juvenile police records (out of school) , so we don't know what's in them ? This would be a first step in finding out if such a pattern existed.

I disagree, seriously this was done to avoid grounds for an appeal, now if the defense subpoenas multiple people administrators, such as school mates of TM, and other community members and establish that TM had a pattern of conduct around the time of his death, that would meet the standard of Munoz.

I'm not a lawyer, and you've clearly read more than I have on this case, so I don't have any particular points to disagree with you about. I guess we will see if any more subpoenas or depositions possibly related to this subject appear.

And again I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this without the behavior common to this thread.

I'm perfectly capable of discussing the facts and toning down the rhetoric, when the other side does so as well.
 
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I don't. I was being glib. My point being that I doubt there will be anything in Martin's school records that the defense can use to bolster Zimmerman's story. A few supposed fights do not a murderer make.

No, but a few "supposed fights" may make a propensity for violence. Which will probably bolster GZ narrative.
 
No, but a few "supposed fights" may make a propensity for violence. Which will probably bolster GZ narrative.

Zimmerman doesn't describe a fight. He describes a murder attempt.

All violence isn't the same.

And I don't see much connective tissue between a schoolyard dustup and violent homicide.
 
Yet your comment tacked on, that I questioned was a non sequitor, it was not about the topic at hand which was the admission of evidence concerning TM, you just went to make a comment that was not really related and again just repeating something that you have probably said a couple hundred of times in the two long threads.

I think your problem is that during these two long threads, we've already gone over this a dozen times, so when you came in trying to explain something we all already know, we feel free to discuss the underlying assumptions. Stick around a while, participate more, and you'll see this.

The same standards would apply to talking about GZ's history in court, and especially the allegation in the restraining order will not be likely to pass muster. Now testimony from the person who got the order would be relevant. Pushing a cop with intoxicated would again not be that likely.

No one has said otherwise. We've been discussing the implications of their actual histories, not what would be allowed in court. Again, this is a long thread, and we're all in agreement on what constitutes admissible evidence. Or at least I thought we were.

Just as with TM there has to be a pattern to establish, I hardly see a history of violence in the reported acts of GZ.

Well, that's just silly. A person with an arrest for assault, a restraining order for assault, and a dead teenager clearly has a history of violence. How many people do you know with such a history?

Now just as with TM, if you get his neighbors to testify that he flipped out and threatened them over little things that would be relevant.

There were people who lived in George's neighborhood who thought he went around like a dictator and they were scared of him, especially if they were black. He called the police on small children.
 
That's what I think is the biggest problem for the defense. In almost every instance where he was asked to describe the incident, he added embellishments intended to make himself look blameless and the victim look aggressive. Sure, we can't KNOW who swung first, but if you and I can agree that the defendant told untruths in order to evade responsibility, then that's something juries tend to dislike immensely. I served on one jury, and in that case, it was the police officer who lied about someone they pulled over for a suspected DUI. People were madder at the cop for lying to them than for the guy who may or may not have been tipsy while driving.

Granted, one embellishment won't make a big difference, but if you can start piling them up, then people will start to turn on him in a big way.

I don't believe it would be uncommon for someone who defended themselves to embellish things to try to make sure others see it the right way.

You say his embellishments were to make the victim look aggressive. Perhaps the victim WAS aggressive?
 
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I don't believe it would be uncommon for someone who defended themselves to embellish things to try to make sure others see it the right way.

I'm not sure I'm following the logic here. If Zimmerman was legitmately defending himself, then why the need to embellish?

You say his embellishments were to make the victim look aggressive. Perhaps the victim WAS aggressive?

Again, I'm not seeing the logic. If Martin was actually aggressive, why the need to embellish the story to make Martin seem aggressive?

In both cases, Zimmerman should be able to recount exactly what happened without the need for embellishment.
 
I don't believe it would be uncommon for someone who defended themselves to embellish things to try to make sure others see it the right way.

And by the way, you what else is probably not uncommon? People who murder other people and claim it was self-defense.
 
Zimmerman doesn't describe a fight. He describes a murder attempt.

He describes being initially assaulted by TM. At best, it was a fight that evolved into a "murder attempt"

All violence isn't the same.

No, it all needs to be taken in context.

And I don't see much connective tissue between a schoolyard dustup and violent homicide.

So, some sort of propensity for violence doesn't tie together violent acts ?
 
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