Jimmy Savile and the Church

[Rincewind]

Jimmy Savile, that well-known abuser, was a Catholic.

He was honoured in 1990 by the then big-P himself with the KCSG - Knight Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of Saint Gregory the Great.

I'm not sure if he had to provide his own horse...

In October 2012, Father Frederico Lombardi told BBC News that in the light of recent information, this honour would certainly not have been bestowed.

This statement, of course, is kind of begging the question.

Doesn't God communicate with the Pope?

Could (should?) He not have at the very least mentioned Savile's crimes to the Pope, with a "don't do this" comment?

Or is this yet another indication that God doesn't exist?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

God's a wacky prankster.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

The last one

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

This raises so many issues:

If God didn’t tell the Pope, then God condones paedophilia.

If God did tell the Pope, but the Pope didn’t listen, then the Pope condones paedophilia (shocker!).

God wasn’t aware of Savile’s actions, therefore is not omnipotent and not the god of the Christian Bible.

God didn’t care about Savile’s actions.

God cannot communicate with the Pope – or anyone – therefore is not omnipotent and not the God of the Christian Bible.

God does not exist.​

Whichever outcome you choose, it doesn’t look good for God, does it?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

This raises so many issues:

If God didn’t tell the Pope, then God condones paedophilia.

If God did tell the Pope, but the Pope didn’t listen, then the Pope condones paedophilia (shocker!).

God wasn’t aware of Savile’s actions, therefore is not omnipotent and not the god of the Christian Bible.

God didn’t care about Savile’s actions.

God cannot communicate with the Pope – or anyone – therefore is not omnipotent and not the God of the Christian Bible.

God does not exist.​

Whichever outcome you choose, it doesn’t look good for God, does it?

I was thinking something similar today - with the Papal Conclave unable to reach a conclusion on their first day, does that mean God can't make His mind up, or that the cardinals aren't listening to Him?

The way out is to claim that God speaks, but we struggle to hear, because He's perfect and we're terrible sinners, terrible, wicked sinners, we're so very naughty, spank me for being so naughty, thank you Lord, and another...

Um, anyway, that's the official answer, which raises more questions, like how they can be so certain of what God wants the rest of the time. There's the Bible, yes, but interpretation is hardly uniform, everything apart from arguably the gospels faces the same problem about revelation, and there are plenty of doctrines, especially Catholic ones, which have no Biblical basis at all.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I was thinking something similar today - with the Papal Conclave unable to reach a conclusion on their first day, does that mean God can't make His mind up, or that the cardinals aren't listening to Him?

The way out is to claim that God speaks, but we struggle to hear, because He's perfect and we're terrible sinners, terrible, wicked sinners, we're so very naughty, spank me for being so naughty, thank you Lord, and another...

Um, anyway, that's the official answer, which raises more questions, like how they can be so certain of what God wants the rest of the time. There's the Bible, yes, but interpretation is hardly uniform, everything apart from arguably the gospels faces the same problem about revelation, and there are plenty of doctrines, especially Catholic ones, which have no Biblical basis at all.

Biggest question for me there would be "If we struggle to hear God, then is he not omnipotent enough to speak in a manner in which we CAN understand?"

A God who cannot make his will understood to his creators is not omnipotent, and therefore not the God of the Christian Bible.

If the Bible is the ultimate 'Tech Support Manual' for Christian Life, what's stopping God from issuing a few updates, instead of allowing his subjects to muddle along, and make stuff up as they see fit?

 

[MikeG]

There have been at least 11 popes who have reigned for 33 days or fewer.

Does this not raise the same question? If god knows everything, why would he give the job of his representative on earth to someone who is only going to last a few days in office? Five of them lasted less than 3 weeks. You would have to be pretty special to achieve anything much in that time.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

There have been at least 11 popes who have reigned for 33 days or fewer.

Does this not raise the same question? If god knows everything, why would he give the job of his representative on earth to someone who is only going to last a few days in office? Five of them lasted less than 3 weeks. You would have to be pretty special to achieve anything much in that time.

I would agree it raises exactly the same questions, but that one is easier to explain away with the old standard: "Mere mortals cannot suppose to fathom the plans of the almighty..."

Which essentially means "Don't ask questions I can't answer!"

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I would agree it raises exactly the same questions, but that one is easier to explain away with the old standard: "Mere mortals cannot suppose to fathom the plans of the almighty..."

Which essentially means "Don't ask questions I can't answer!"

[shrug] He's ineffable...

God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.

 

[angrysoba]

This raises so many issues:

If God didn’t tell the Pope, then God condones paedophilia.

If God did tell the Pope, but the Pope didn’t listen, then the Pope condones paedophilia (shocker!).

God wasn’t aware of Savile’s actions, therefore is not omnipotent and not the god of the Christian Bible.

God didn’t care about Savile’s actions.

God cannot communicate with the Pope – or anyone – therefore is not omnipotent and not the God of the Christian Bible.

God does not exist.​

Whichever outcome you choose, it doesn’t look good for God, does it?

You forgot to ask, "Is the God a Catholic?"

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

[shrug] He's ineffable...

Ah, 'Good Omens'. One of my favourite books EVER.

You forgot to ask, "Is the God a Catholic?"

Does the Pope **** in the woods?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

Biggest question for me there would be "If we struggle to hear God, then is he not omnipotent enough to speak in a manner in which we CAN understand?"

A God who cannot make his will understood to his creators is not omnipotent, and therefore not the God of the Christian Bible.

And then we come round to tedious and futile redefinitions of omnipotence. Could God create an object so big He couldn't move it? Could God create a square circle? Once those very unoriginal questions have been dealt with, omnipotence is already a long way from the cartoony stereotypes, so there's a fair bit of wiggle room. Maybe God could make His will clearly understood, but chooses not to, for ineffable reasons of His own - some sort of H2G2-style "free will" or "test of faith" thing.

Not that I believe that, but that's the argument.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

And then we come round to tedious and futile redefinitions of omnipotence. Could God create an object so big He couldn't move it? Could God create a square circle? Once those very unoriginal questions have been dealt with, omnipotence is already a long way from the cartoony stereotypes, so there's a fair bit of wiggle room. Maybe God could make His will clearly understood, but chooses not to, for ineffable reasons of His own - some sort of H2G2-style "free will" or "test of faith" thing.

Not that I believe that, but that's the argument.

Essentially what Richard Dawkins refers to as 'the God of the gaps' - "I don't know why this happened; I don't know the answer to that question; I don't know how this works, so the only reply is 'Because 'God'".

 

[Rincewind]

Well - there's a surprise...

None of the usual suspects have visited!

 

[tsig]

Jimmy Savile, that well-known abuser, was a Catholic.

He was honoured in 1990 by the then big-P himself with the KCSG - Knight Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of Saint Gregory the Great.

I'm not sure if he had to provide his own horse...

In October 2012, Father Frederico Lombardi told BBC News that in the light of recent information, this honour would certainly not have been bestowed.

This statement, of course, is kind of begging the question.

Doesn't God communicate with the Pope?

Could (should?) He not have at the very least mentioned Savile's crimes to the Pope, with a "don't do this" comment?

Or is this yet another indication that God doesn't exist?

God's ways are not man's ways, how can us lowly, creeping bags of filth hope to understand the mind of an 0³ being who gave us all life and has a right to take it on a whim?/believer rant off

 

[Rincewind]

I'd like to thank the choir for the posts - sums up exactly what I was aiming for!

BTW - are you a multiple personality?

 

[dafydd]

Believers, where are you?

 

[Dog Breakfast]

You forgot to ask, "Is the God a Catholic?"

Hard to say, I mean, he was baptized... by a Jew...

Seriously though, it seems weird that God wouldn't tell the pope about what horrible things this guy did before he was bedecked and beknighted and so forth. Or maybe God could have told the police, for that matter. If I knew about his crimes I totally would have told the police first chance I got.