Alternative Cancer Treatment - An unbiased discussion on the basic theories behind.

[dafydd]

Interesting link, Mojo!

One of several papers leaving a door open to more research and to a more flexible mind state.

The peptides and neoplastons theory, if going through the standard scientific rules, with FDA requisites fully observed, will probably take another 10 years.

As you know, and please don´t crash on me for saying it, there is a certain line of homeopaths and laboratories already producing a series of selective "substances" I won't say "medicines" (to avoid another crack on me) by a complex process of subjecting certain tissues to enzymes and other reactive compounds.

Where the "borderline" is crossed is when orthodox medicine ignores the fact patients declared "terminal" engage, without nothing to loose, as subjects for such treatments.

Other patients with the same "terminal death sentence", have gone through other "treatments" (witch craft, woo, woo stuff, quack, quack, named according to almighty science devotees)...

You might say "Oh they will loose their money"... I would respond: "Nobody carries money beyond the grave"....

But suddenly we encounter the main Taboo in this forums: "Terminal" people start communicating their experiences. They start narrating "anecdotes, as you say", where they are still living and feeling well far beyond their "terminal date"...

Arguments will be (I know): "They had a bad diagnostic" or "The placebo effect made them live longer" or "They are not in a clinical trial so it is not acceptable" or "they did chemo before", no matter they are alive!

But... What is the point in what I say?

It is IMPOSSIBLE the hundreds and hundreds of testimonial "anecdotes as labeled" would be ALL WRONG, all lies, all fake, all delusions. An impossible uniformity in a myriad of "fake" testimonials! Because we also find some failure testimonials as well.

The same as orthodox treatments, which report either success or failure, the same happens with natural, homeopathic, or parallel science treatments.

There is a subtle, hidden factor or element not yet considered. The human hidden factor! The extreme subtleties withing the "fully understood, talk to me no more" biochemistry and biology. IMPOSSIBLE to generalize and collect within a set of trial subjects, picked up randomly from a community, even from a large country.

A conscious analysis of testimonials, within all the implications could reveal new ways of thinking, new leads for scientific research. I am sure of that.

The problem is the strong attitude towards rejection, denial, scorn and defamation for even daring to speak on this subjects, which is the main obstacle in cancer and other illnesses fight.

Homeopathy? Are you serious?

 

[MikeAparicio]

I keep starting to write a post, but have to abandon it because Burzynski and his anti-neoplaston con make me so angry that I can't express myself well. I'll leave it to someone with a little more composure and just leave you with the latest link I read about the detestable man.


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...ccess-stories-update-movie-sequel/#more-25079

Sad story, professor!

Question: Was Amelia declared TERMINAL?
If that is the case, the ONLY people with the right to be sorry or not is her family for having paid lot's of money. Maybe she was given some Hope. Maybe she had some extra happy days.

If that is not the case and orthodox doctors offered an alternative (within their options).... (Please don't take me wrong), why did they went with your so much hatred doctor?
I suppose someone made a decision. Can Burzynski be fully blamed for the decision?

 

[MikeAparicio]

Homeopathy? Are you serious?

I KNEW you would crack on me! I said it right?

Listen Pal: I did NOT say Homeopathy is good or bad. Did I?

Does it exist? Yes or no?

 

[dlorde]

But suddenly we encounter the main Taboo in this forums: "Terminal" people start communicating their experiences. They start narrating "anecdotes, as you say", where they are still living and feeling well far beyond their "terminal date"...

Arguments will be (I know): "They had a bad diagnostic" or "The placebo effect made them live longer" or "They are not in a clinical trial so it is not acceptable" or "they did chemo before", no matter they are alive!

The placebo effect wouldn't be involved. Inaccurate prognosis is fairly common. Disease progression is often unpredictable.

It is IMPOSSIBLE the hundreds and hundreds of testimonial "anecdotes as labeled" would be ALL WRONG, all lies, all fake, all delusions. An impossible uniformity in a myriad of "fake" testimonials! Because we also find some failure testimonials as well.

It's certainly impossible for them all to be all those things; but the number of anecdotal testimonies doesn't add any value.

There is a subtle, hidden factor or element not yet considered. The human hidden factor! The extreme subtleties withing the "fully understood, talk to me no more" biochemistry and biology. IMPOSSIBLE to generalize and collect within a set of trial subjects, picked up randomly from a community, even from a large country.

We already know that individuals vary in their biochemistry and biology, and in their disease response. Nevertheless, a lot has been achieved by large scale random trials. Also, unusual patterns of responses in subsets of trial populations are investigated.

A conscious analysis of testimonials, within all the implications could reveal new ways of thinking, new leads for scientific research. I am sure of that.

A conscious analysis? Someone has to stay awake through hundreds and hundreds of testimonials?

But seriously, common features in testimonials are often investigated, when there is some hope of obtaining relevant evidence - for example, we have a system in the UK where patients who suffer adverse side-effects from a prescribed drug can report them to their doctor, with the intention of collating data identifying unsuspected problems in the wider population, because clinical trials are necessarily limited in scope.

And seriously, how do you propose someone can investigate "extreme subtleties withing ... biochemistry and biology" by analysing hundreds of testimonials? How would that work?

 

[dafydd]

I KNEW you would crack on me! I said it right?

Listen Pal: I did NOT say Homeopathy is good or bad. Did I?

Does it exist? Yes or no?

It exists, it does not work. Why did you mention it ?

''As you know, and please don´t crash on me for saying it, there is a certain line of homeopaths and laboratories already producing a series of selective "substances" I won't say "medicines" (to avoid another crack on me) by a complex process of subjecting certain tissues to enzymes and other reactive compounds.''

How could distilled water subject tissues to enzymes? And what would you do if you were diagnosed with cancer?

 

[shuttlt]

By 'it', I meant Modern Medicine. Of course you are right about the science part, but what I mean is we cannot just separate and dismiss real-world results. Let's say, for example, that your chance of dying via pneumonia during a hospital stay is 5 times greater due to resistant bacteria than if you stayed home and did nothing, that MUST be factored in, as must deaths due to anesthesia for relatively minor procedures and other fatal procedural errors (oops! - we didn't mean to give you hepatitis through tainted blood!).

What I am saying is that when making a life choice for cancer treatment, ALL of the things that sometimes go wrong within the system are part of the final decision making equation (for me) though the things I have mentioned are NOT considered as part of the side-effects of treatment.

I cannot divorce the two.

I don't think you are unique in being interested in the odds of picking up a fatal hospital infection. I can't speak for the US, but it is certainly something that statistics are gathered for in the UK.

By the way, how do you assess the odds of picking up such an infection, or having some other misshap, along with all the other odds that are at play?

 

[MikeAparicio]

msg

Yea! Right! And also you can get them at:

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/categories.asp?cid=2

NOTICE: This is NOT SPAM! It is for illustration purposes ONLY!

 

[Daylightstar]

... Homeopathy ...

Does it exist? Yes or no?

As an actual medical intervention? No.

 

[dafydd]

Yea! Right! And also you can get them at:

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/categories.asp?cid=2

NOTICE: This is NOT SPAM! It is for illustration purposes ONLY!

It's amazing how many things there are that you can do without.

 

[MikeAparicio]

It exists, it does not work. Why did you mention it ?

''As you know, and please don´t crash on me for saying it, there is a certain line of homeopaths and laboratories already producing a series of selective "substances" I won't say "medicines" (to avoid another crack on me) by a complex process of subjecting certain tissues to enzymes and other reactive compounds.''

How could distilled water subject tissues to enzymes? And what would you do if you were diagnosed with cancer?

I mentioned it precisely because it exists. If you can read carefully,the argument leads towards the fact people DO use it.
About the "distilled" water thing... It is NOT what I am talking about. What I said is there are Homeopaths and Homeopatic labs. producing those peptide derived treatments. want some links?

And... Yes... I WAS diagnosed with cancer. What would I do? Think it ALL OVER very well! Investigate the whole world. ASK. I asked my orthodox doctors. The wanted me to stay "under observation"... Good for them. I asked them for me trying some Non Orthodox treatments while in observation... They said fine. We can help you check your status anytime.

You see? Our Guatemala doctors are Fine Doctors! They understand their limitations and other possibilities.
I like my doctors... Do you want to see their credentials? Every body needs "proof" here!....

 

[MikeAparicio]

It's amazing how many things there are that you can do without.

Come on man! You also have an "arm to twist"!

I am just showing there are available aminoacids to take directly without protein. I suppose you are trying to derail our interesting discussion....


Abut what you said above:

You should say: It's amazing how many things there are that I can do without.

 

[theprestige]

And... Yes... I WAS diagnosed with cancer. What would I do? Think it ALL OVER very well! Investigate the whole world. ASK. I asked my orthodox doctors. The wanted me to stay "under observation"... Good for them. I asked them for me trying some Non Orthodox treatments while in observation... They said fine. We can help you check your status anytime.

Hello Mike! Did you try any specific Non Orthodox treatments while in observation?

What were they?

What were the results?

When your orthodox doctors checked your status, did they see the results?

 

[dafydd]

What I said is there are Homeopaths and Homeopatic labs. producing those peptide derived treatments. want some links?

Producing distilled water, not peptides. No links to wacko homeopathic sites. Please.

 

[MikeAparicio]

As an actual medical intervention? No.

I didn't say it exists "as anything". No! Things can exist without being "as something".

But actually it exists as an option for persons. Sorry but it is a fact! You don't like it? Fine! But it does exist! Mainly for terminally ill declared patients!.

It certainly is an OPTION independently of its efficacy. The fact some say "it is NOT efficacious" doe not make it nonexistent!

Is THAT so difficult to understand? Basic logic, used by good scientists.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Producing distilled water, not peptides. No links to wacko homeopathic sites. Please.

Flatland must be very cold, right?

 

[dlorde]

It certainly is an OPTION independently of its efficacy. The fact some say "it is NOT efficacious" doe not make it nonexistent!

In that case, you missed out prayer, witchcraft, spirit healing, etc. Anything at all can be an OPTION (oops, you got me doing it now) option. Your point somehow becomes less clear when anything goes.

 

[dafydd]

Flatland must be very cold, right?

???? Do you also advocate putting chicken bones under your pillow and dancing widdershins around a church at midnight as a cure for cancer? After all, those things exist.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Hello Mike! Did you try any specific Non Orthodox treatments while in observation?

What were they?

What were the results?

When your orthodox doctors checked your status, did they see the results?

Yes to the last question.

I am afraid of speaking the treatments and results as I will be accused of testimonial faker, quackery, selling stuff, wakoo lover, or plain liar. I don't like any of those "honors".

I am trying to feel comfortable enough as to expose answers to your first two questions.

THIS IS A VERY SCARY FORUM!

 

[ehcks]

Efficacious is a VERY ambiguous word!

Not at all. It means having a statistically significant and repeatable (by anyone) advantage over placebo, as discovered by a double-blind clinical study.

 

[MikeAparicio]

???? Do you also advocate putting chicken bones under your pillow and dancing widdershins around a church at midnight as a cure for cancer? After all, those things exist.

I do not advocate that thing you saw in a movie, but I guess people does it! That is precisely my point!

You keep putting words in my mouth! I have NOT advocated for anything except open mind. I realize it is hard thing... sometimes...