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Old Testament World

Yes, but it's mostly an argument of incredulity.

"Why should the Hebrews, who had no special expertise in ancient science and who borrowed heavily in other areas, have had a view different from other ancient peoples'?"

In other words, he argues that it is reasonable to believe that the Israelites had a cosmology similar to those of its neighbors at the time and that the Biblical text does not contradict such a worldview. And that's entirely true, but it's much different than actual proof that the Israelites had this worldview, or that they considered the Bible an inerrant codification of such a cosmology.

In post 5, you indicated you wanted to use the evidence of cosmology to counter the claim of Biblical literalists that the references to pillars and firmament are merely poetic. But even if the ancient Israelites believed that the Sumerian cosmology was a reasonable one, that doesn't mean they rejected the possibility of other cosmologies. They can use the current cosmology in a poetic sense to describe the stories they wanted to tell in a way that would be understood by their Bronze Age audience even while comprehending they don't know how the world actually worked.

Did the Ancient Israelites believe in a cosmology similar to the Babylonians? Probably. Would they have thought that a different cosmology was sacreligious or impossible because of the Bible's descriptions? For that we have absolutely no evidence, because the issue never came up. But we do know that centuries later, as new facts were developed, the Jewish descendants of the ancient Israelites had no religious turmoil in accepting a new cosmology, notwithstanding how the Bible described the heavens. There is no evidence that Jews rebelled against the idea that pi does not equal precisely 3, or rebelling at the idea of a round world, or a heliocentric solar system. So there's very little evidence that Jews took the description of the universe in the Bible as literal truth.

But God wouldn't have written his book that way. He would have dictated a real world account of events even if dressing it up in poetic language. Just like he wouldn't have had written that a mustard seed is the smallest seed or that a bat is a bird. This is a God of Truth remember. Truth with a capital T.
 
If you want to counter the stories of 'The Flood' I am sure there are better lines of attack.
 
But God wouldn't have written his book that way. He would have dictated a real world account of events even if dressing it up in poetic language. Just like he wouldn't have had written that a mustard seed is the smallest seed or that a bat is a bird. This is a God of Truth remember. Truth with a capital T.

And yet the literalists you're trying to force to accept this argument never accepted this argument. So, again, your argument comes down to

CriticalSock: You should believe X
Literist: But I don't believe that.
CriticalSock: But you should and if you did, you'd see that your philosophy doesn't make sense.
Literalist: But I don't believe X.
CriticalSock: But you should! Because then I'd be right!
 
And yet the literalists you're trying to force to accept this argument never accepted this argument. So, again, your argument comes down to

CriticalSock: You should believe X
Literist: But I don't believe that.
CriticalSock: But you should and if you did, you'd see that your philosophy doesn't make sense.
Literalist: But I don't believe X.
CriticalSock: But you should! Because then I'd be right!

Just because it isn't accepted by literalists doesn't make it wrong. You're also misrepresenting my argument. It would be more like this:

CriticalSock: Your belief X is wrong because of Y
Literist: But I don't believe Y
CriticalSock: But you should because Y is correct (cite historical sources)
Literalist: It still don't believe Y because it contradicts X
CriticalSock: But you should! Because then you'd be freed of the shackles of religious belief and another drop of ignorance will have been sponged off the face of mother earth.
Literalist: Get out of my house.
 
Just because it isn't accepted by literalists doesn't make it wrong.
I tmakes it neither right nor wrong.

CriticalSock: Your belief X is wrong because of Y
Literist: But I don't believe Y
CriticalSock: But you should because Y is correct (cite historical sources)
Well, there you go. Why are yo making an obtuse argument that relies on historical sources to show the errancy of the Bible when you can make a direct one.

The Bible posits a 6,000 year old earth. There's innumerable data showing the earth is much older.

Literalists don't accept evidence. So why are you trying to construct an argument relying on evidence? Who are you trying to convince?
 
I tmakes it neither right nor wrong.


Well, there you go. Why are yo making an obtuse argument that relies on historical sources to show the errancy of the Bible when you can make a direct one.

The Bible posits a 6,000 year old earth. There's innumerable data showing the earth is much older.

Literalists don't accept evidence. So why are you trying to construct an argument relying on evidence? Who are you trying to convince?

Because it's not about winning arguments, it's about winning minds?

My literalists don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth. The evidence is overwhelming enough that that point is now accepted. one day I hope they'll accept the flood account as being allegorical rather than literal. Maybe I'll see the day that the garden of eden story is accepted as allegorical too.

Every step towards accepting a non-divine origin of the bible text is a step towards truth IMO.
 
My literalists don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth.
Then they aren't literalists. The Bible literally counts the generations and lifespans from Adam to Jesus. Literally, the Earth cannot be more than 6,000 some-odd years old.

You could do them a favor and offer Avalon's term, "inerrantist," meaning "the Bible is always right, even it isn't always literal about it."
 
In which case, there's no point to the original argument, since the inerrantist would merely state that the Bible was talking poetically using imagery the Bronze Age audience would understand.
 
Then I think you're using the word "literalist" wrong. You may mean "fundamentalist"?

Then they aren't literalists. The Bible literally counts the generations and lifespans from Adam to Jesus. Literally, the Earth cannot be more than 6,000 some-odd years old.

You could do them a favor and offer Avalon's term, "inerrantist," meaning "the Bible is always right, even it isn't always literal about it."

They believe in a literal global flood and a literal garden of Eden. Hence literalist. You could call them cherry picking literalists if that helps?

They do believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God although some things like the "days" of creation are not literal but are, what, allegorical?


In which case, there's no point to the original argument, since the inerrantist would merely state that the Bible was talking poetically using imagery the Bronze Age audience would understand.

Poetic language that a Bronze age audience would understand doesn't wash. They would understand the concept of the surface of spheres being covered in water. You're saying that God would use an incorrect world view to get his point across poetically. That doesn't seem very godly.
 
You're saying that God would use an incorrect world view to get his point across poetically. That doesn't seem very godly.
Why is that ungodly? He's not teaching physics. He's making an ethical lesson. It's like nitpicking the medical inaccuracies in Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Again, this is not an argument that is likely to sway anybody to your side. If anything, it's only going to make you look like you lack the ability to make any sort of contextual analysis.
 
Why is that ungodly? He's not teaching physics. He's making an ethical lesson. It's like nitpicking the medical inaccuracies in Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Again, this is not an argument that is likely to sway anybody to your side. If anything, it's only going to make you look like you lack the ability to make any sort of contextual analysis.

Are you suggesting I hold Victor Hugo to the same standards of literary veracity as the creator of everything, the god of truth, the alpha and the omega? The hater of foreskins? The suspector of pork?

This is *God* we're talking about.

The bible is advertised as being his only contact with us, the distillation of everything that the God of the universe wants to say to his mortal creation.

So yes, while I don't expect a physics textbook I expect the physics in it to be bang on.

Even, and I want to make this perfectly clear, even if he is being "Poetic".
 
So yes, while I don't expect a physics textbook I expect the physics in it to be bang on.

Even, and I want to make this perfectly clear, even if he is being "Poetic".

And I don't think that the people you are trying to convince with this argument have that same expectation. It is by no means a necessary assumption.

Which means, as I said earlier, your argument is premised on the idea that "You should believe X because I can totally disprove that."
 

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