Elephants on brink of extinction

[Puppycow]

This is so tragic. I hope something can be done to save this magnificent species.

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/06/173508369/elephant-poaching-pushes-species-to-brink-of-extinction

 

[a_unique_person]

Why do you hate people?

 

[MikeG]

Elephants are not on the brink of extinction. That is a scare-mongering headline. The populations are rising in some areas to the point where there are too many elephants to be sustainable. Northern Botswana and Kruger NP are just two of many such examples. The Chinese have instigated a resumption in ivory poaching on a huge scale, and many populations are under severe pressure, but the elephant as a species (in Africa) is safe. Extinction is a ridiculous suggestion.

Why do you hate people?

Trivial. Hardly worth answering. But just go and do some reading before you try to turn this into a humans vs elephants debate over land rights. It isn't. This is about trinkets for the Chinese middle classes.

This issue is being discussed at the current CITES convention, along with the much, much more urgent, desperate even, plight of the rhinos. We really should be talking about them, not elephants.

Mike

 

[Didaktylos]

If the Chinese want ivory, what they should be doing is systematically scouring Siberia for mammoth carcasses.

 

[Puppycow]

Elephants are not on the brink of extinction. That is a scare-mongering headline. The populations are rising in some areas to the point where there are too many elephants to be sustainable. Northern Botswana and Kruger NP are just two of many such examples. The Chinese have instigated a resumption in ivory poaching on a huge scale, and many populations are under severe pressure, but the elephant as a species (in Africa) is safe. Extinction is a ridiculous suggestion.



Trivial. Hardly worth answering. But just go and do some reading before you try to turn this into a humans vs elephants debate over land rights. It isn't. This is about trinkets for the Chinese middle classes.

Mike

I hope you are correct. I'd rather be wrong than right on this one.

 

[Puppycow]

Isn't there an ethical and sustainable way to have ivory? If we can just have a little patience?

Elephants don't live forever and when they die of natural causes I see no reason why we shouldn't use the ivory at that point. In the long run the supply of ivory depends on the supply of elephants. How short-sighted to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs when letting it live and proliferate would end up supplying the more wealth in the long run than killing them now in the short run.

 

[MikeG]

Tusks are collected by all the National Parks boards and National Wildlife Services at the moment, and stockpiled. I have seen lots of dead elephants over the years, and they've poretty much without exception had their tusks removed legally. It was the release of some of this stockpile about 10 or 15 years ago that triggered the last burst of elephant poaching. As soon as there are legal sources of ivory, then it becomes impossible to differentiate illegal from legal, and it is cheaper to kill an elephant than to buy from a government controlled stockpile.

There are no simplistic solutions to this, as there aren't to the rhino problems. Unfortunately. Eventually, this is going to boil down to requiring a change of attitude in China, and proper enforcement of international agreements. When you are dealing with sod-you countries like China and Vietnam, then you are struggling.

 

[a_unique_person]

Elephants are not on the brink of extinction. That is a scare-mongering headline. The populations are rising in some areas to the point where there are too many elephants to be sustainable. Northern Botswana and Kruger NP are just two of many such examples. The Chinese have instigated a resumption in ivory poaching on a huge scale, and many populations are under severe pressure, but the elephant as a species (in Africa) is safe. Extinction is a ridiculous suggestion.



Trivial. Hardly worth answering. But just go and do some reading before you try to turn this into a humans vs elephants debate over land rights. It isn't. This is about trinkets for the Chinese middle classes.

This issue is being discussed at the current CITES convention, along with the much, much more urgent, desperate even, plight of the rhinos. We really should be talking about them, not elephants.

Mike

I don't see why they are being slaughtered for ivory makes it any less a problem, I said nothing about land. The rhino is in more trouble. The fact is, though, that unless elephants are actively protected, they disappear rapidly.

http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/endangered_species/elephants/african_elephants/

 

[Soapy Sam]

If the Chinese want ivory, what they should be doing is systematically scouring Siberia for mammoth carcasses.

I think the Russians might have something to say about that.

It's a valid plan though. I have a couple of pieces of scrimshaw work, done on Mastodon ivory from Alaska. Quite legal. Of course that raises the question of the exact cause of the extinction of mastodons...

 

[MikeG]

.........I said nothing about land.......

No. True. But you did say something bizarre about hating people, and I could only infer that you had a point to make about choosing people ahead of elephants. Perhaps if you had been less obtuse we might all have been able to respond more accurately.

 

[a_unique_person]

No. True. But you did say something bizarre about hating people, and I could only infer that you had a point to make about choosing people ahead of elephants. Perhaps if you had been less obtuse we might all have been able to respond more accurately.

If it's people taking land, which is happening, the range for elephants has reduced incredibly, or killing them for ivory, it's people either way.

 

[MikeG]

Their range has been reduced. That is true. But there are also still huge areas for them to wander in freely. Given this fact, the immediate pressure on their population, (where there is such pressure.....remember, in some areas elephant numbers are exploding) is NOT from loss of land, it is from poaching.

 

[angrysoba]

Their range has been reduced. That is true. But there are also still huge areas for them to wander in freely. Given this fact, the immediate pressure on their population, (where there is such pressure.....remember, in some areas elephant numbers are exploding) is NOT from loss of land, it is from poaching.

I think this came from a previous thread. Someone ranted "Too many people yargle blargle!"

At some point someone posted something about some elephants being poisoned with, "See! Too many people! Yargle Blargle!" or words to them effect.

 

[Caper]

The Chinese government has to step up on this one.

 

[MikeG]

The Chinese government has to step up on this one.

There's no hope then..........

 

[MikeG]

I think this came from a previous thread. Someone ranted "Too many people yargle blargle!"

At some point someone posted something about some elephants being poisoned with, "See! Too many people! Yargle Blargle!" or words to them effect.

I see. Thanks.

 

[BenBurch]

If the Chinese want ivory, what they should be doing is systematically scouring Siberia for mammoth carcasses.

You know, that is a good idea. I wonder if you can narrow down the places to search?

 

[Travis]

I fail to see why anyone needs ivory. Seriously, knowing how they get it, who wants this stuff?

 

[MikeG]

I fail to see why anyone needs ivory. Seriously, knowing how they get it, who wants this stuff?

The Chinese.

It is hugely fashionable, as is powdered rhino horn (although the Chinese aren't the only culprit there), particularly amongst the newly rich. You have to understand the Chinese mentality. This is a country that once upon a time wiped out all of its songbirds. They generally have no regard whatsoever for the natural world, seeing it only as a resource to be plundered.

 

[MikeG]

You know, that is a good idea. I wonder if you can narrow down the places to search?

It's just easier and cheaper to pay an African to kill an elephant. That way there is certainty.