Merged Hugo Chavez Esta Muerto

[WildCat]

Err none of those are funded by people who have historicaly overthrown the US goverment.

Hmm coming up with a US equiv is difficult. I guess confederat funded newspapers in the north might be the closest concept.

Hey, we allow the BBC to broadcast here. And they burned down the White House.

There's no restrictions on German or Japanese funded media either.

 

[Virus]

Indecedently I think you underestimate the importance of Chavez's attempts to setup parallel systems of government. Elections aren't that important if power has shifted.

Are they the boot boys who go around beating up Chavez's opposition?

 

[geni]

Hey, we allow the BBC to broadcast here. And they burned down the White House.

The BBC didn't exist in the 19th century and the The London Gazette didn't get nationalised untill the 1880s.

 

[geni]

Are they the boot boys who go around beating up Chavez's opposition?

Nope. Chavez was a bit smarter than that.

You see it turns out its rather hard to oppose someone when all your time is being taken up by request from some kind of resident's council that is under the impression that it runs the place.

 

[McHrozni]

The recent data from italy suggests that to an extent at least yes.

Free and fair elections require free speech. You can make a claim that Italian elections were fatally flawed, but not that fatally flawed elections in a supposedly democratic nation make the flaws less important.

Indecedently I think you underestimate the importance of Chavez's attempts to setup parallel systems of government. Elections aren't that important if power has shifted.

Do you think you can have a democracy, if the power of the state lies primarily in non-elected institutions?

McHrozni

 

[WildCat]

The BBC didn't exist in the 19th century and the The London Gazette didn't get nationalised untill the 1880s.

So?

 

[geni]

Free and fair elections require free speech. You can make a claim that Italian elections were fatally flawed, but not that fatally flawed elections in a supposedly democratic nation make the flaws less important.

I was refering to the media ownership situation in the country.

Do you think you can have a democracy, if the power of the state lies primarily in non-elected institutions?

Thats a rather complicated question involving rather a lot of political theory.

In the strictest sense no but in the strictest sense there are no pure democracies on this earth.

In practice well you can run the numbers. Goverments are rarely elected for terms of more than 5 years and don't normaly consist of more than 1000 people. Civil servants generaly have a job for life and at a minium number in the 10s of K. Where do you think the real power is going to end up?

 

[McHrozni]

I was refering to the media ownership situation in the country.

Hmph. Berlusconi was very much aided by his personal wealth and media ownership, but that doesn't mean he had the ability to curb free speech. He had the ability to plaster himself all over the main media channels and ignoring his opponents without usurping the power of the state, which is what happens in Venezuela.

In any event, it is irrelevant. Even if the two situations were identical in every way (and they are not), it would still only mean that the Italian election was also flawed, and wouldn't absolve Venezuelan government of anything.

Thats a rather complicated question involving rather a lot of political theory.

In the strictest sense no but in the strictest sense there are no pure democracies on this earth.

In practice well you can run the numbers. Goverments are rarely elected for terms of more than 5 years and don't normaly consist of more than 1000 people. Civil servants generaly have a job for life and at a minium number in the 10s of K. Where do you think the real power is going to end up?

The real power will lie in the hands of those choosing the said civil servants and having the ability to tell them what to do and how to do it - i.e. the executive and legislative - and to some extent juridical - branches of the government. In democracies, those are elected or at least confirmed by elected representatives.

Plus the "job for life" is usually relative. Jobs tend to be long-lasting, that is true, but the leading positions are often changed with the change of government, at the behest of those elected.

McHrozni

 

[geni]

The real power will lie in the hands of those choosing the said civil servants and having the ability to tell them what to do and how to do it - i.e. the executive and legislative - and to some extent juridical - branches of the government. In democracies, those are elected or at least confirmed by elected representatives.

You've just defined the UK as not a democracy.

Plus the "job for life" is usually relative. Jobs tend to be long-lasting, that is true, but the leading positions are often changed with the change of government, at the behest of those elected.

Which given the time it takes for appointments to happen and confirmations to take place renders them even less powerful. Who are you going to pay more attention to the person in nominal charge who could be gone in 3 years or the second in comand who will be around for a decade pluss and knows the organisation better than you do.

 

[dudalb]

Maybe you can have a dead pool dead pool, and bet on which Schrodinger's President will be confirmed dead first? Mubarak; Sharon; Castro; Chavez.

Maybe Saturday Night Live can have a new version of the classic "Francisco Franco" routine.....

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Is Hugo Chavez really the emobodiment of Orwellian totalitarianism?

No, he is not.

You wanna look at North Korea for that comparison.

 

[dudalb]

No, he is not.

You wanna look at North Korea for that comparison.

And we got one guy on this forum who is a defender of the NOrth Korean regime.....

 

[timhau]

And we got one guy on this forum who is a defender of the NOrth Korean regime.....

Well, not any more. It's America's fault.

 

[McHrozni]

You've just defined the UK as not a democracy.

Really? How?

Which given the time it takes for appointments to happen and confirmations to take place renders them even less powerful. Who are you going to pay more attention to the person in nominal charge who could be gone in 3 years or the second in comand who will be around for a decade pluss and knows the organisation better than you do.

You just claimed that the politics doesn't have virtually any control over the functions of the state, even though it has the power to to pretty much anything with it. Good job. Are you genuinely interested in a debate or just trying to provide us with comic relief?

McHrozni

 

[carlitos]

I know that the verb in the OP is correct, but even so, the impermanent nature of estar makes this post a little bit funnier.

 

[Polaris]

Well, not any more. It's America's fault.

I wonder if that PM included his trademark looming threat of invoking forum rules.

 

[Virus]

There are certain foundations that are required for democracy which are actually more important than the box-ticking itself, such as separation of powers, independent judiciary, free speech, property rights, low corruption and economic freedom.

But Venezuela has none of those things either. What they've got is a lunatic president, corruption and food shortages.

 

[timhau]

I wonder if that PM included his trademark looming threat of invoking forum rules.

I so wish they'd make those abusive PMs public. We need the lulz.

 

[Virus]

I wonder if that PM included his trademark looming threat of invoking forum rules.

Yessssss!

 

[Polaris]

I so wish they'd make those abusive PMs public. We need the lulz.

I can't be the only poster here who sees someone has been banned and wants to know what they did.