Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[tyr_13]

Was it as big as your straw man in which you pretended Unabogie claimed it was impossible for Zimmerman to have been killed by Martin?

Because that was my goal.

The alternate is where it would be unreasonable for Zimmerman to be in fear of his life because Martin wasn't a big enough threat to him and yet still be possible for Martin to kill Zimmerman.

Think through what you're saying. It's self-contradictory. And it's a straw man too. I didn't say 'impossible' and neither did Unabogie. I made my criticism very clear and very specific.

 

[Unabogie]

The alternate is where it would be unreasonable for Zimmerman to be in fear of his life because Martin wasn't a big enough threat to him and yet still be possible for Martin to kill Zimmerman.

Think through what you're saying. It's self-contradictory. And it's a straw man too. I didn't say 'impossible' and neither did Unabogie. I made my criticism very clear and very specific.

But I did say that I find it highly unlikely that the events unfolded the way he claims they did. I find it much more likely that a known liar and a known hothead got hot headed and then lied, than it is that he took a single punch from a kid with no violence on his record and went immediately down to the ground, falling over backwards, and couldn't get back up again.

I base this on the lack of injuries consistent with his story. I base this on the evidence that shows he lied about various locations and events in order to make Trayvon seem more threatening. I base this on the ease in which he and his wife lied to the court about their money and passport. If he were truthfully in fear of his life, he wouldn't be such a consistent liar about how he came be in that situation.

I'm not saying he couldn't have been in fear for his life, just that I don't believe his story and I think the evidence shows he was mad and not scared, and that he shot in anger and not fear.

 

[Dan O.]

If I knew that TM was the one screaming for help it would drastically change my opinion, I think. I do think it was Z screaming for help because that is what the witness said. Also, TM's father originally denied it was his son screaming.

I think George was screaming his little baby head off. That he was able to scream shows that he wasn't getting murdered for a very long time durring that fight. George was pined to the ground by his own blubbery weight and Martin was holding his arms stretched out so he couldn't fight back. The only thing George could do was scream and that's just fine with Martin because the screams will bring out he's neighbors who will be able to watch this bully while he gets up. Unfortunately, the witness who was to Martin's back turned and went inside when he said he was calling the police. Only George would be able to see that the witness left and when his arms were released and Trayvon backed up from where his legs were around George's waist, George was able to retrieve the gun he had in the waistband holster, drew it on Trayvon at near point blank range, said or thought those fateful words: "you're going to die tonight" and pulled the trigger.

 

[Unabogie]

Unabogie, I happen to think that all the evidence matches his story. I see no reason to believe he made it all up on the spur of the moment and got lucky.

I don't know why you think he got lucky. The picked at his story for a couple of days and now he's facing second degree murder charges.

I don't know if you've been away from the thread for a while, but the witnesses who supposedly support his story aren't looking so sure, and the timeline off the NEN call doesn't match the distances traveled, and the location of the body and debris field don't match his story, and his supposed injuries weren't even serious enough for stitches. He's also told more than one version of the story and been caught trying to deceive the court about his finances and the existence of a passport.

Also, his lawyers are trying to stall the trial while the state is ready to go. I'm not seeing his good fortune here and I'm not seeing a strong case for self-defense.

Curious, do you feel that he and his wife's bond hearing deception calls in question their honesty, or do you think she didn't lie at all?

 

[Dan O.]

George was also expecting the police at any moment. Martin wasn't because, you see, in spite of the fact that he had a cell phone he didn't call the police.

When exactly should Martin have called the police? Is it appropriate to:

CALL THE POLICE WHENEVER YOU SEE SOMEONE IN A CAR ON A CELL PHONE.

Or, when:

YOU ARE AFRIAD SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING YOU AND YOU RAN AWAY AND NOW YOU DON'T SEE THEM FOLLOWING YOU ANYMORE.

Or,

A STRANGER THAT MAY HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING YOU APPEARS NEAR BY AND WITHOUT IDENTIFYING HIMSELF QUESTIONS WHAT YOU ARE DOING THERE AND THEN MAKES A SUDDEN MOVE THAT MIGHT BE REACHING FOR A WEAPON


I'm sure the police get calls all the time on the first two. The third case might actually be usefull if you were fast enough to hang up the current call and immediately dial, 9-1-*BANG*. Then again, perhaps a fight or flight response would be more apropriate here.

 

[WildCat]

You are absolutely right. The lack of physical evidence where evidence would be expected under George's scenario leads to speculation of alternate scenario's.

Unless you are actually afraid to discover the truth, all possibilities should be explored.

Oh look, more speculation!

Just like how 9/11 truthers say "inside job" because the collapse of the towers just didn't look right.

And people wonder why I use the term "Trayvon Truthers".

 

[WildCat]

I think George was screaming his little baby head off. That he was able to scream shows that he wasn't getting murdered for a very long time durring that fight. George was pined to the ground by his own blubbery weight and Martin was holding his arms stretched out so he couldn't fight back. The only thing George could do was scream and that's just fine with Martin because the screams will bring out he's neighbors who will be able to watch this bully while he gets up. Unfortunately, the witness who was to Martin's back turned and went inside when he said he was calling the police. Only George would be able to see that the witness left and when his arms were released and Trayvon backed up from where his legs were around George's waist, George was able to retrieve the gun he had in the waistband holster, drew it on Trayvon at near point blank range, said or thought those fateful words: "you're going to die tonight" and pulled the trigger.

So much speculation, so little evidence.

Truth^TM away Dan!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't know why you think he got lucky. The picked at his story for a couple of days and now he's facing second degree murder charges.

They yanked it from the grand jury and appointed a special prosecutor and charged him on APRIL 11 !

That's a couple of days ?

Please can we try to stick closer to facts when describing things we actually know.

 

[Unabogie]

They yanked it from the grand jury and appointed a special prosecutor and charged him on APRIL 11 !

That's a couple of days ?

Please can we try to stick closer to facts when describing things we actually know.

I meant that the police picked at the story over a few days and it was those findings that led to his murder charge. I don't know how that makes him "lucky". His story was flimsy and it fell apart under scrutiny.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I meant that the police picked at the story over a few days and it was those findings that led to his murder charge. I don't know how that makes him "lucky". His story was flimsy and it fell apart under scrutiny.

OK, gotcha.

I think his story is somewhere between airtight and fallen apart.

 

[Unabogie]

OK, gotcha.

I think his story is somewhere between airtight and fallen apart.

airtight-----------------------------------------------------------George-----fallen apart

Somewhere like that?

 

[Dancing David]

Thanks for not answering the question, something that the pro-Trayvon side has never actually done. Want to try again and answer those two questions without all the ranting?

Many of us who are 'pro-Trayvon' do not participate in the urine festival of this thread. Some of us wait for the trial and will see what happens. GZ could walk or be convicted.

 

[johnny karate]

The alternate is where it would be unreasonable for Zimmerman to be in fear of his life because Martin wasn't a big enough threat to him and yet still be possible for Martin to kill Zimmerman.

Think through what you're saying. It's self-contradictory. And it's a straw man too. I didn't say 'impossible' and neither did Unabogie. I made my criticism very clear and very specific.

There's nothing to think through because, again, you're countering an argument no one has made.

We're not discussing the altercation in the abstract and drawing the conclusion that Zimmerman couldn't have possibly been in fear for his life because he outweighed Martin.

We're drawing the conclusion that Zimmerman lied about the encounter based on the very specific details he provided and how they size up against the evidence. The weight differential is only one data point among many, and not the sole data point upon which the argument hangs.

And to that point, while it certainly is possible for a big man to be put in fear for his life by a skinny kid, it is also improbable. The advantage in most cases is going to the guy who's 50 lbs heavier.

And since we're discussing probabilities and not simply possibilties, the argument that it is within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman could have reasonably been in fear for his life is purely academic.

 

[johnny karate]

I may agree with you here except that some 16 year old kids can be quite vicious when fighting. They are too young to realize the consequences of some of the actions performed when fighting.

You mean like willfully and brutally trying to murder someone, as Zimmerman alleges Martin did?

Yeah, such a common trait among teenagers. Always trying to murder people because they're too young to realize the consequences.

 

[johnny karate]

Oh, Mumbles was there? Sorry, I didn't know that.

No, Mumbles is probably just familiar with the evidence.

Which seems to be a rarity in this thread.

 

[johnny karate]

Because the FBI gave a copy of that information to the state, and not the defense.

Really, it's not complicated.

The FBI gave the state copies of their internal paperwork?

Why?

And how could the defense possibly know that?

 

[tyr_13]

There's nothing to think through because, again, you're countering an argument no one has made.

We're not discussing the altercation in the abstract and drawing the conclusion that Zimmerman couldn't have possibly been in fear for his life because he outweighed Martin.

We're drawing the conclusion that Zimmerman lied about the encounter based on the very specific details he provided and how they size up against the evidence. The weight differential is only one data point among many, and not the sole data point upon which the argument hangs.

And to that point, while it certainly is possible for a big man to be put in fear for his life by a skinny kid, it is also improbable. The advantage in most cases is going to the guy who's 50 lbs heavier.

And since we're discussing probabilities and not simply possibilties, the argument that it is within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman could have reasonably been in fear for his life is purely academic.

No, see there you go again. His story is not implausible because of the weight. The weight 'data point' is bad evidence. Just as a pile of bad evidence doesn't become good evidence in aggregate, neither does bad evidence become good evidence because it's lumped in with what might be good evidence.

You're giving weight (pun intended) to a bad argument because it suits the conclusion you've come to. It doesn't matter that the conclusion might very well be the correct one for other reasons.

It's not so unlikely as to be unbelievable because of the size difference. It's a bad data point that will lead to bad conclusions if relied on in other cases so stop using it. That's my argument.

 

[bookworm]

You mean like willfully and brutally trying to murder someone, as Zimmerman alleges Martin did?

Yeah, such a common trait among teenagers. Always trying to murder people because they're too young to realize the consequences.

You sure are good at twisting people's words. I gotta give you that.

 

[Unabogie]

No, see there you go again. His story is not implausible because of the weight. The weight 'data point' is bad evidence. Just as a pile of bad evidence doesn't become good evidence in aggregate, neither does bad evidence become good evidence because it's lumped in with what might be good evidence.

You're giving weight (pun intended) to a bad argument because it suits the conclusion you've come to. It doesn't matter that the conclusion might very well be the correct one for other reasons.

It's not so unlikely as to be unbelievable because of the size difference. It's a bad data point that will lead to bad conclusions if relied on in other cases so stop using it. That's my argument.

A few points on this. First of all, you're calling this "bad evidence" but you certainly haven't supported that assertion. I can look to my own personal experience and say that when I've wrestled with my younger nephews when playing basketball, for instance, they can't budge me at all and I don't even outweigh them by 50 pounds. I can also point to how professional fighters have weight classes and separate themselves according to weight. Certainly they also think weight adds an advantage to the heavier person. I watch NBA basketball and fat guys like Glen Davis routinely get the better of taller, skinnier players because they can't move him around. So absent evidence from you, you've presented nothing that says that weight is "bad data". And until you do, I'll consider George's weight advantage to be part of the evidence against him.

 

[johnny karate]

You sure are good at twisting people's words. I gotta give you that.

Who's words am I twisting?

You are disingenously portraying the altercation in a manner other than how Zimmerman described it.

You keep insisting it was just a teenager who got carried away and probably didn't realize what he was doing.

But that is not how Zimmerman described the attack.

He described a brutal and sustained assault by someone intent on ending his life.

So either quit downplaying how Zimmerman described the altercation, or just come out and admit you think he is lying, too.