Merged What the quran really says.

[Craig B]

The Ottomans in that case are a separate beast entirely because of the weird role religious calligraphy played when it came to written work (and science influencing the interpretation of scripture is likewise a different beast than religion influencing science in general).

That would explain why, when they did adopt printing in the nineteenth century, they preferred lithography, which preserves the role of the calligrapher, over moveable type, which doesn't.

 

[A'isha]

That would explain why, when they did adopt printing in the nineteenth century, they preferred lithography, which preserves the role of the calligrapher, over moveable type, which doesn't.

Yes.

Because of its relative cheapness, simplicity (no need for type design and cases of type for the many hundreds of Arabic letterforms needed), and ability to exactly reproduce in print the calligraphic preparation of texts (a well-designed and executed lithograph was almost indistinguishable from an actual manuscript), lithography was pretty much the printing process used in the Muslim world. It was so popular in and associated with the Muslim world, in fact, that Ian Proudfoot once characterised it as "the Islamic technology" in an article in the journal of the Printing Historical Society.

 

[msore]

The quran contains references to the sun and moon, and to the stars.
Therefore it is inviting critical analysis of what it says. For example it says the stars are lamps to throw at devils.

Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.

Such statements show the limitations of Muhammads astronomical knowledge, and they show that he was not getting a message from God.

what the ...

Shakespeare said something about roses, so
Shakespeare's literature is the proper context
for arguing about gardening, eh?

holy crap

 

[joesixpack]

when the quran says, ... ... So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong. The quran is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but why are you wasting time arguing against people who try to rationalize religious texts in an effort to justify their mythological beliefs?

 

[joesixpack]

Such statements show the limitations of Muhammads astronomical knowledge, and they show that he was not getting a message from God.

You needed proof? Why?

 

[A'isha]

If you come to a skeptics' site and post something that boils down to "Hey, did you know that the Qur'an doesn't actually contain modern scientific knowledge, and that Muhammad didn't really take dictation from God?", the responses you're going to get will likewise boil down to "Well, duh."

 

[Scorpion]

You needed proof? Why?

There are around five thousand people a year, most of them white women, converting to Islam in this country, and I feel the need to try and disuade them. I have been doing this for ten years, since after I saw the world trade center come down live on TV. I have convinced one muslim to abandon Islam in that time. I hope to convince more in the future.

 

[A'isha]

There are around five thousand people a year, most of them white women, converting to Islam in this country,

Were these people atheists before they converted?

and I feel the need to try and disuade them. I have been doing this for ten years, since after I saw the world trade center come down live on TV. I have convinced one muslim to abandon Islam in that time. I hope to convince more in the future.

You aren't going to find them here, you know.

 

[Scorpion]

Were these people atheists before they converted?

Hi, I don't know. I saw a television documentary about it recently.

 

[A'isha]

Hi, I don't know. I saw a television documentary about it recently.

If they were already religious and believers of some sort before converting to Islam, then all these "white women" did was change the flavor of their particular irrational beliefs. And 5,000 people is .0016% percent of the population of this country - at that rate, it would take one thousand years just to total 1.5% of the current population.

 

[Craig4]

What difference does it make what is actually written in the Quaran? It's a religious text which means it can be made to mean anything you like. Given the effort and the interest I could come up with arguments that the passage you cited means the Earth revolves around the sun or the sun around the Earth.

The only religious text that has any instructive value is the Kama Sutra because it has pictures that show you on what you're supposed to do.

 

[joesixpack]

There are around five thousand people a year, most of them white women, converting to Islam in this country, and I feel the need to try and disuade them. I have been doing this for ten years, since after I saw the world trade center come down live on TV. I have convinced one muslim to abandon Islam in that time. I hope to convince more in the future.

I don't understand why their skin color is cause for alarm, or even why it bears mentioning. Would it be less startling if they were women of color?

Secondly, people don't adopt religious beliefs for rational reasons, so rational arguments won't change their mind in the slightest. These "proofs" that believers share amongst themselves are simply that, reenforcement of already held beliefs. They don't believe in the divine origin of the Quaran because some Muslim scholar shows through tortured logic that Muhammad had inside info on the shape of the universe, they believe that Muhammad had the inside line because the Quaran is of divine origin. They already believe, the rationalization is what follows. Pricking holes in it won't de-convert a single white woman (or man or person of any shade).

 

[Bikewer]

NPR, on various shows, has interviewed numbers of "Western" women who have converted.
The reasons given are all rather fuzzy, and no one mentioned an intellectual examination of the beliefs or scrutiny of the Koran.
The distinct impression I got was that many of these conversions are for the same reason that many youngsters "convert" to things like Hare Krishna or whatever...
It's "breaking away". It's "See, mom & dad, I'm my own person now. I don't have to folow your stodgy old religion."
Or more succintly in the case of women... It's a case of "up yours, Daddy!"

 

[Darth Rotor]

Bikewer:

Or they met a filthy rich Saudi who wanted to marry them.

 

[msore]

know all

NPR, on various shows, has interviewed numbers of "Western" women who have converted.
The reasons given are all rather fuzzy, and no one mentioned an intellectual examination of the beliefs or scrutiny of the Koran.
The distinct impression I got was that many of these conversions are for the same reason that many youngsters "convert" to things like Hare Krishna or whatever...
It's "breaking away". It's "See, mom & dad, I'm my own person now. I don't have to folow your stodgy old religion."
Or more succintly in the case of women... It's a case of "up yours, Daddy!"

Is it the role or the gift of a "philosopher" to be such a good mind-reader? Amazing how some can know what people around the world are really thinking.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Bikewer:

Or they met a filthy rich Saudi who wanted to marry them.

Or even, someone who claims to be a filthy rich Saudi who who says he wanted to marry them.

 

[Scorpion]

What the quran really says

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the earth is flat
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years

Muslim Imams will say differently, but they are liars who must know this is what the Quran really says, however there would be no money in the mosques coffers, and the 50 or more Muslim country's would collapse.
Because to admit the above is what the quran really says would be to admit it is not the words of God.

So Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population with carefully crafted lies, that attempt to give deeper meaning to the Quranic verses.So when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But this is utter lies, and the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the earth, and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong.

 

[DC]

yeah muslim countries would collapse like Vatican city did when they admited Adam and Eve are merely a metaphor and evolution is real.

all those books claimed to be the word of one or another god, are merly fantasy books, be it the bible, the torah, the koran or whatever.
they are old books by people that knew next to nothing about the planet they are living on. we know better today.

 

[DC]

the bible also claims the world and heavens was made in six days. today we know thats not true. and most christians know that and do not take the bible literally. yet christianity is sadly enough still alive and doing too good for the 21th century.

so why do you think it would be different in the muslim countries?

 

[Scorpion]

DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.