WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

[beachnut]

The old JREF lapse of memory yet again.
Oystein less than 2 weeks ago:


Typical for JREF forum, an anonymous amateur calling Harrit of Max Planck Institute an amateur, and then pretending he does not "doubt in any way the credentials".

How Pathetic, but this is what this forum is famous for.

Harrit is no an expert on 911, he is a paranoid conspiracy theorist who says hundreds of Tons of thermite were used on 911. But the steel did not show any signs of being damaged by thermite.

The forum is famous for telling the truth, 911 truth is famous for fantasy. You might be an easy mark for 911 truth, you can't see the DSC don't match, and have no clue what DSC is used for. You look at spectrum from material, and don't have clue it is not thermite. Harrit says themite and you are locked in to fantasy.

Millette already published his findings, I have a copy, he found not thermite. It does not take a scientist to figure out Harrit is crazy on 911 issues, Harrit proves it by talking. Harriet's paper clearly shows no thermite; why does Harrit lie and conclude thermite? You can't do anything but attack JREF because Harrit and Jones are nuts on 911. You can't compare the DSCs, they don't match. You can't look up other material spectrum because they do match the thermite spectrum claimed by Harrit, but the spectrum is not thermite.
The biggest laugh, is burning the sample and it looks like vermiculite, expanding slowing, not like thermite burning. I can't believe you can't see it is not thermite burning.

No evidence of thermite burning on 911.
No steel found with thermite damage or blast damage.
No melted steel.
Iron spheres are found in fires like the WTC event.
Millette found not thermite. We already have his preliminary report, Harrit is fraud, you like fantasy, case closed. 11 years of failure for 911, on track for infinite failure.



Millette did not find your fantasy termite stuff. The secret stuff, the special blend.

.... LEE found in independent DUST study 6% by mass iron rich spheroids, WAY out of kilter to normal 'collapse' dust ratio., ...

Where is your source the iron spheres are out of "kilter". RJ Lee says they are normal for a fire like the WTC. Normal for WTC collapse.

What might of fooled you is reading the RJ Lee report where they compare normal office dust, with the stuff they found in the Bank building after 911. Yes, iron spheres are not very much in, 0.04 percent in background dust normally found in offices. Not in normal fires, but in no fire, working, living office dust. You make up stuff without reading the source. It is called cherry-picking, and quote-mining. Add some gish gallop gullibility, and we have 911 truth.

 

[Oystein]

The old JREF lapse of memory yet again.
Oystein less than 2 weeks ago:


Typical for JREF forum, an anonymous amateur calling Harrit of Max Planck Institute an amateur, and then pretending he does not "doubt in any way the credentials".

How Pathetic, but this is what this forum is famous for.

I said "The only "lying" there are actually Harrit et al.
Well, perhaps not lying - being the bloody amateurs they are, they may simply be unqualified to read DSC curves.". Yes, I said that.

Did I use their credentials in that statement? Or their past achievements?
Did I doubt any of their credentials? Did I doubt any of their past achievements?

I say they are bloody amateurs when they were trying, and failing, to do a forensic study.
Is Harrit a credentialed or achieved forensicist?
Is Jones a credentialed or achieved forensicist?
Is Farrer a credentialed or achieved forensicist?

Can you name any one from that group of scientists who has credentials or achievements as a forensicist, along with the specific credentials ot achievements?

I specifically claim they are bloody amateurs working with a DSC.
Are claiming Harrit is not an amateur when it comes to working with DSC? Can you point to any credentials or achievements that Harrit can boast of that have anything to do with DSC?
Can you point to any credentials or achievements that Farrer can boast of that have anything to do with DSC?
Can you point to any credentials or achievements that Jones can boast of that have anything to do with DSC?
Can you point to any credentials or achievements that Griscom can boast of that have anything to do with DSC?


So which credentials or achievements that Harrit et al. can actually lay claim to have I used or doubted in the above statement?



I heard that Harrit is a well credentialed and achieved saxophone player with good standing in the Danish jazz scene. If Harrit had played the sax somewhere, and I exclaimed he played badly and is a bloody amateur, then you'd be right - I'd be pretending and pathetic. However, if Harrit had been on stage playing guitar, and I said he played like **** because he is a bloody amateur, then I'd be entirely correct, and it would be relevant, for Harrit cannot lay claim to any credentials or achievements as a guitar player. And I would be quite qualified to judge his performance - I learned to play guitar myself and have listened to more good guitar players than sax players. Harrit being a good musician on one instrument doesn't save him from being found out as a bloody amateur on another.

Harrit being a capable ans well-achieved scientist in some sub-field of chemistry doesn't save him from being found out as a bloody amateur in another.

 

[chrismohr]

@ Everybody: Note that none of our arguments use or doubt in any way the credentials and past achievements of the involved scientists. Most of us also do not doubt the genuineness of their data. Our arguments rest squarely on the data (all of it). This is where we are different from truthers.

Oystein I disagree with the spirit of your claim. I just went back one page, to page 52 of this thread, and counted 11 nasty personal anti-truther swipes. There's a lot of good data and information here but let's not kid ourselves about the fact that this is also a rough playground!

 

[remo]

LEE reported 'extremely high temperatures DURING the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool. Metals were vaporized DURING the WTC event ie:in the air. USGS team observed and studied a molybdenum-rich spherule requiring extreme heat, melting at 4,753F, and 'although addition of other elements may lower the melting point, no explanation of the high temperature needed to form the observed Mo-rich spherule is given in USGS material.

"Not only is it necessary for the material to have achieved extremely high temperatures to melt and so be able to form small spheres, it is also necessary that some violent physical disturbance occur in order to shatter the molten material into the sizes observed, 1.5mm down to about one micron dia. Various explosive chemical reactions will result in formation of spherules in end products' [p9.Extremely High temps.during the WTCdestruction.Jones,Farrer etal]

If you are having violent ejections of molten iron sprayed into pulverizing concrete DUST clouds DURING the catastrophic eruptive 'collapse' phase of multi-storied steel framed high rises; where numerous and bona-fide eye witness reports of explosives heard occurring throughout: ie:while building material dismemberment/pulverization is IN the AIR - reducing 10 acres of 4' concrete flooring to ppm per second - ten floors per second - at temperatures reaching up to 2,760C [aluminosilicates]; argument would have to consider the chance of advancing a 'normal office furnishings fire' fueled 'sequential building collapse' hypothesis as Agnotology. Or, Fraud. A 'new phenomena'. a skeptics paradise. Which it is. In fact Richie LEE later thought the 'unusual' amount of iron rich spheroids [droplets of molten metal in violent exothermic reaction] may have come from the 'rust' burning in the furnace like elevator shafts ' before the 'collapse' occurred; difficulty being in how it infused as 6% by mass the DUST at ppm during collapse if it went up in smoke BEFORE... another verse from the Pinnochio Sunder creatioNIST school of engineering.

10 stories PER SECOND of steel framed high rise at one acre per floor of concrete, pulverized into ppm dust and 6% by mass violently molten iron-rich spherule spray, while in the air [airborne]
is not the behavior of 'normal office furnishings fires' and gravitational physics.

Edited. Do not change another member's user name in order to insult.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[beachnut]

Millette finds no thermite. Matches evidence found at WTC

LEE reported 'extremely high temperatures DURING the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool. Metals were vaporized DURING the WTC event ie:in the air. USGS team observed and studied a

1000C, extremely high. RJ Lee said the fires in the WTC did it. RJ Lee did not find thermite. Lead, in the back up batteries in the WTC? 130 tons of TNT in kinetic energy released in each tower volatilize the melted lead, it melts easy in fire, as does Al. But 911 truth will not understand this, it is called science and 911 truth does not do science, math or physics; if they did they would not fall for lies from nuts like Jones, DRG, Gage, and other failed leaders of woo.

What metal were vaporized? They all happened at temperates below those that melt steel, and you can't provide anything but the silly ,'extremely high temperatures" talk, and never able to provide any temperature, because 1000 C is extremely high.

Another gish gallop failure, 911 truth is best at avoiding real numbers, they pull them out of google. You will not look up the melting point of pure Mo, and ignore the Mo found was not pure, and did not melt as Mo, but as a compound that was burned and crushed in the WTC at temperatures of 1000C. LOL, here comes the made up claim, pure Mo melted. All you have left is to call me names case you can't comprehend chemistry, fires, science. The Mo is in circuits in stuff, it is in paint, and uses as lubricant. No melted Mo.

molybdenum-rich spherule requiring extreme heat, melting at 4,753F, and 'although addition of other elements may lower the melting point, no explanation of the high temperature needed to form the observed Mo-rich spherule is given in USGS material.

No, Mo was found in paint, and other stuff, you failed to read the USGS report, but you quotemine it and make up the 4752F. You lied, but you don't know it, as you google Mo melting point and add it out of ignorance. oos, now you are reduced to being fooled by Jones insane thermite claims.

Truth is...
Molybdenum? It is found in computers, paint, etc. LOL, 911 truth can't do simple research. Molybdenum, playing the Molybdenum card means 911 truth has lost it.

USGS - Concentrations of other trace metals and metalloids such as molybdenum, antimony, and titanium, are tens of parts per million or less.

Trace?
Where did they come from?

USGS - The trace metal compositions of the dust and girder coatings likely reflect contributions of material from a wide variety of sources. Possibilities include metals that might be found as pigments in paints (such as titanium, molybdenum, lead, and iron),...

"Not only is it necessary for the material to have achieved extremely high temperatures to melt and so be able to form small spheres, it is also necessary that some violent physical disturbance occur in order to shatter the molten material into the sizes observed, 1.5mm down to about one micron dia. Various explosive chemical reactions will result in formation of spherules in end products' [p9.Extremely High temps.during the WTCdestruction.Jones,Farrer etal]

130 Tons of TNT in Kinetic energy was released in each tower. Why can't 911 truth do physics?

also necessary that some violent physical disturbance occur

130 Tons of TNT in Kinetic energy was released in each tower

also necessary that some violent physical disturbance occur

130 Tons of TNT in Kinetic energy was released in each tower

Repeat after me...

also necessary that some violent physical disturbance occur

130 Tons of TNT in Kinetic energy was released in each tower

Enough violent physical disturbance?
130 Tons of TNT in Kinetic energy was released in each tower, in less than 30 seconds. Enough? lol

If you are having violent ejections of molten iron sprayed into pulverizing concrete DUST clouds DURING the catastrophic eruptive 'collapse' phase of multi-storied steel framed high rises; where numerous and bona-fide eye witness reports of explosives heard occurring throughout: ie:while building material dismemberment/pulverization is IN the AIR - reducing 10 acres of 4' concrete flooring to ppm per second - ten floors per second - at temperatures reaching up to 2,760C [aluminosilicates]; argument would have to consider the chance of advancing a 'normal office furnishings fire' fueled 'sequential building collapse' hypothesis as Agnotology. Or, Fraud. A 'new phenomena'. a skeptics paradise. Which it is. In fact Richie LEE later thought the 'unusual' amount of iron rich spheroids [droplets of molten metal in violent exothermic reaction] may have come from the 'rust' burning in the furnace like elevator shafts ' before the 'collapse' occurred; difficulty being in how it infused as 6% by mass the DUST at ppm during collapse if it went up in smoke BEFORE... another verse from the Pinnochio Sunder creatioNIST school of engineering.

No explosives were used on 911.

Who said at temperatures reaching up to 2,760C? That is a lie you made up due to ignorance. Who said iron rich spheres were unusual? No one.

10 stories PER SECOND of steel framed high rise at one acre per floor of concrete, pulverized into ppm dust and 6% by mass violently molten iron-rich spherule spray, while in the air [airborne]
is not the behavior of 'normal office furnishings fires' and gravitational physics.

10 stories per second? lol.

No thermite was found, no damage to steel at the WTC by thermite. What was your point? Jones lies and 911 truth followers believe him. That is being gullible..

You did not research the Mo stuff much. What percent was Mo found at? lol, you made up most of your claims, and you don't know which part you added to make it woo.
You will resort to making up names, good luck backing in thermite, if only Jones used BS, it has 4 times the heat energy of thermite, but Jones BS comes up to zero.

RJ Lee the one you made up the temperature and failed to read his report for comprehension, found no thermite. Says iron sphere were formed in fire.
USGS says Mo was found due to computers, paint and other sources during the collapse of the WTC. No thermite found.
A real study, Millette's study, found no thermite. Why did Jones make up the conclusion he found thermite; is it like you adding your own temperatures, and ignoring what your sources said? Just a mistake due to ignorance?

 

[Oystein]

Oystein I disagree with the spirit of your claim. I just went back one page, to page 52 of this thread, and counted 11 nasty personal anti-truther swipes. There's a lot of good data and information here but let's not kid ourselves about the fact that this is also a rough playground!

Note that none of these 11 nasty personal anti-truther swipes used or doubted in any way the credentials and past achievements of the involved scientists. Most of us also do not doubt the genuineness of their data.
Some called Kevin Ryan a charlatan and baffoon based on his performance in the paper and, later, defending it with specious allegations of fraud against a rival - not based on his credentials and past achievements, or lack thereof.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for civility.

Why are you still ranting about the unwashed chip matching your Tnemec? Do you expect me to believe that you have forgotten about all the previous discussion about what happens after the chip has been washed? The Zn and the Ca and a lot of other stuff disappear, so they are obviously contaminants, hence no Tnemec. Pour yourself a nice hot cup of coffee and take a good look at figure 17, which is a close-up of a region of aluminum in the MEK chip. Your boys have ranted that the lack of Zn in those figures could be because Harrit et al did not focus on the right spots, which is hogwash, but even that excuse will never work for a region of aluminum because if it is Tnemec then there would be Ca along with the aluminum, since they would be bound in a compound. There is no Ca in figure 17 so it is absolutely impossible that this is Tnemec. Get over it and move on. Leave it up to Sunstealer and Oystein to repeat their hogwash theory until the end of days, but you should respect your credentials and your days at the MPI.

Jtl: I'm no expert on XEDS, but as for MEK chip after washing in MEK, we do not see the "overall" XEDS after soaking, we see basically only those XEDS maps for C, Fe, Al, Si and O. Perhaps such overall spectrum can show Zn and Cr, expected for Tnemec paint.

You are right that Al peak in Tnemec primer should be accompanied with Ca peak (because of declared calcium aluminate). We know it well. This is why Fig. 17 remains a mystery for us (considering Tnemec as a material). Oystein suggested that XEDS for Fig. 17 might be recorded in area outside of chip, but this just a speculation. Anyway, we cannot prove it. Highly qualified truther Poseidon came with even much wilder speculation: he agrees that red layer is some paint, but according to him, Fig. 17 shows remains of Al from the nanothermite on the red paint layer Anyway, it is a pity that Haritt et al did not show us the specific area, at which this spectrum was recorded (as is usual in Millette's study).

Indeed, Fig. 17 does not correspond to Tnemec. But everything else corresponds to Tnemec paint well, or quite well: the "arrangement" - red/gray layers, red layer of the expectable thickness, XEDS prior soaking in MEK (corresponding to Tnemec with ca 10 % of calcium sulfate), swelling typical for crosslinked polymeric binder in paints, etc.
So, anyone who is not obssesed with nanothermites, can conclude: why to consider some mystical nanothermite as a material (because of one single Fig. 17), when Tnemec primer (or some similar red paint) is a good candidate?

Btw, it is off-topic here

 

[jtl]

Kminek: Indeed, Fig. 17 does not correspond to Tnemec. But everything else corresponds to Tnemec paint well, or quite well: the "arrangement" - red/gray layers, red layer of the expectable thickness, XEDS prior soaking in MEK

Nothing corresponds to Tnemec after MEK washing; lack of Ca, Zn and Cr in all 3 figures(16-18).

why to consider some mystical nanothermite as a material (because of one single Fig. 17), when Tnemec primer (or some similar red paint) is a good candidate?

It´s not just figure 17 that eliminates Tnemec, also 16 and 18, or quite simply all the figures showing the chip after wash. Ignoring this data requires the kind of wishful thinking that is inappropriate for you.

When you consider that f.17 shows the same chip, you are forced to consider thermitic material like Harrit, because without the Ca, you are left with aluminum, and that in the end it means you have aluminum plus iron oxide(thermite) embedded in an organic matrix, and this kind of material is actually called "superthermite".

Figure 17 or the ingredients in general are not the only reason given, the reduced molten iron after ignition really is the smoking gun that I would like to see challenged.

 

[beachnut]

... You are right that Al peak in Tnemec primer should be accompanied with Ca peak ... Btw, it is off-topic here

911 truth can't do chemistry with their heads are filled with propaganda from Jones and Harrit, nuts on 911 issues. 911 truth believe fake reports, they don't do chemistry. They can't go public with their delusions because they are 911 truth followers, not doers, no action will be taken as they wallow in ignorance put out by the Big Lie propaganda nuts like Gage. What did Gage say about the Millette report? How does he ignore science done outside of 911 truth nuts?

It does not matter how many reports, papers, or studies are done; 911 truth can't do reality. 911 truth will not accept reality.

The moment we all miss, when jtl wakes up to reality, has an epiphany and begins to think for himself. I love it when we learn and make a breakthrough. Will he be upset that Jones and Harrit made up their conclusions to satisfy some insane fantasy? He has to fight Millette's conclusion, it ruin the silly claims of thermite.

Millette did not find thermite, 911 truth thinks DSC is special, but they failed. 11 years down the tubes, shooting forever.

The dust study by Millette is not needed to know thermite was not used. There is no physical evidence of thermite on WTC steel. No tons of iron left over from the Harrit 100 tons of thermite fantasy. How dumb are 911 truthers to believe iron spheres mean thermite - that is extra credit stupid.

 

[remo]

Ashes to Ashes.

“The amount of energy introduced during the generation of the WTC dust and the ensuing conflagration caused various components to vaporize.… Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury, and various organic compounds, vaporized and then condensed during the WTC event.” LEE

Vaporization and condensation of 'various components' generated by ENERGY INTRODUCED during WTC pulverization phase is the POINT, Mr. beach nut.

Spherule formation requires introduction of explosive/incendiary energy. In exothermic action. That is 'the fire' creating the 'extreme heat' creating the spheres found by LEE and others in 'unusual' [150x normal] amounts in collapse dust. Including the Molybdenum sphere. ALL had to be fired into melt and spat into air molten to condense thereafter into sphere is the point.
Not just a TV component melted by 'normal office furnishings fire'.

The nature of energy expressed in gravitational collapse physics is different to that exhibited by the fierce and designed 'extreme heat' events creating DUST and vaporization/condensation spheres of metals found in WTC.

Promoting the idea that building construction materials under gravity could provoke or provide explosive/incendiary/energetic activity as OBSERVED; that 'equivalent TNT' inherent and inactive in static building construction/material 'somehow', transmogrified by gravity into proactive explosive 5thousand degree heat sources violently and sequentially ejecting hundreds of multi-tonne steel sections at 70mph hundreds of feet radially at 3/4 FREE FALL during 10 floors per second, 6% by mass iron-rich spheroid, DUST generation phase - AND boiling metals to aerosol in the pile for WEEKS afterwards - is a disaster of intellect. A Failure of the Imagination. Pure-bred Agnotology.

 

[beachnut]

“..., Mr. beach nut. ...

Your entire post was BS, which has more energy than Jones insane claim of thermite. 4 times more energy, than thermite. You could bottle your posts and start an energy company.

... 10 floors per second, ...

Is that the best 911 truth can do?
First 10 floors - 2.93 seconds. What happen to 911 physics? 911 can't do physics? Ever take a physics course? lol
What does 911 truth call the math and physics they use?

LEE and others in 'unusual' [150x normal] amounts in collapse dust.

Source? LOL, Lee never said unusual, he said when you burn up the WTC with office fires, and they collapse you get what he found. That is what his papers say, but you have to read it, and understand it. 911 truth quote-mines the iron spheres, an makes up the fantasy of thermite, a new kind of anti-intellectual insanity.
Please give the page number where Lee said it was unusual. Can you source any of the nonsense you posted?

11 years of failure, and you are reduced to what kids in grade-k do, play with names. What will you do for an encore?

... Promoting the idea that building construction materials under gravity could provoke or provide explosive/incendiary/energetic activity as OBSERVED; that 'equivalent TNT' inherent and inactive in static building construction/material 'somehow', transmogrified by gravity into proactive explosive 5thousand degree heat sources violently and sequentially ejecting hundreds of multi-tonne steel sections at 70mph hundreds of feet radially at 3/4 FREE FALL during 10 floors per second, 6% by mass iron-rich spheroid, DUST generation phase - AND boiling metals to aerosol in the pile for WEEKS afterwards - is a disaster of intellect. A Failure of the Imagination. Pure-bred Agnotology.

Except the nonsense you added out of ignorance, It is called physics, don't worry, 911 truth does not allow physics you are the perfect follower, falling for the fantasy of thermite, and lies from nuts in 911 truth.

Millette found no thermite. You found woo, you love it. You don't know the topic. Oh wait, you are doing a parody of 911 truth. Sorry, I thought you were serious.

 

[ozeco41]

Your entire post was BS, which has more energy than Jones insane claim of thermite. 4 times more energy, than thermite. You could bottle your posts and start an energy company.

You occasionally excel yourself beachnut. That one is a "keeper".

On a semi serious and off topic note I was a sewage engineer and we used to recover gas from poop to provide some of the energy to run the plants.

In those days, pre 1994 for me, intensive piggeries were the only industry where gas from pig poop could produce all the energy required to run the factory.

[/crap_derail

 

[chrismohr]

Niels Harrit: "any material producing elemental iron from iron oxide must be thermitic." Is this true?

 

[chrismohr]

Here's a variation on an interesting challenge from Niels Harrit: has anyone demonstrated formation of iron rich spheres from heating up primer paint painted on steel or iron chips? Is this something Ivan or anyone else here can do?

 

[Spanx]

Here's a variation on an interesting challenge from Niels Harrit: has anyone demonstrated formation of iron rich spheres from heating up primer paint painted on steel or iron chips? Is this something Ivan or anyone else here can do?

I assume we would find iron rich spheres below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDH92VxPEQ&feature=youtube

And here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4De8-B1CSk&feature=youtube

And I would guess any iron workers workshop floor

 

[beachnut]

more iron rich BS

Niels Harrit: "any material producing elemental iron from iron oxide must be thermitic." Is this true?

With respect to what? Harrit is nuts, the thinks hundreds of tons of thermite was used on 911, and failed to realize tons of iron were not found from the thermite. His thermite leaves no evidence. Fantasy thermite.
Where did he find elemental iron? They found iron oxide, and clay. Insanity is Jones and Harrit's claims of thermite. They debunk themselves, it is called fraud, insanity. Did they fool you into debating their fantasy? How do you debate insane people with idiotic claims; is that possible? When will you expose them as fakes, conspracy nuts?

So all iron comes from thermite? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051011073801.htm

Guess where iron rich spheres come from?

Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents - RJ Lee

You can get iron rich spheres from diesel fuel too.
The 6 percent iron spheres is a BS statement. RJ Lee's study was done in 2002 after the clean up. Means the stuff was from the collapse and clean up.

To get a better idea about the iron in dust, you have to look at USGS study... and not follow the goal posts moving 911 truth nuts who have thermite in their minds, like zombies.

The WTC was filled with iron-bearing components, and contents.

You can google how iron is made, but Harrit's statement is most likely a gish gallop, goal post moving exercise to debate his fantasy. Who is dumb enough to debate insane claims made by nuts.

Here's a variation on an interesting challenge from Niels Harrit: has anyone demonstrated formation of iron rich spheres from heating up primer paint painted on steel or iron chips? Is this something Ivan or anyone else here can do?

Iron comes from anything iron in the WTC. This is called reality. Harrit has a fantasy.

Poof of no thermite was found on the steel. No damage from blasts, no damage by melting, no piles of tons of termite product, called iron.

Fires that were a part of the WTC Event produced combustion-modified products that traveled with other components of WTC Dust. Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC Dust. These products are:
• Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents
• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials
- RJ Lee

How does Jones, Harrit and Gage spread lies so freely? Gage is still a thermite nut right? Gage took a pay cut, but he takes in 400k/yr; So he was making 450k/yr? Or was he hiding the fact he runs AnE Nuts on 911, which makes the 400k/yr. Who pays for his travel/food/transpiration around the world? Does he pay you to debate him? Give him some legit stink?

Iron Micro-spheres in the Context of the World Trade Center Dust
Well, let’s start with the basics. The World Trade Center was a building with many iron‐based components. There were structural components such as beams and electrical conduit. There were building contents such as desks and file cabinets.

Now, the building is hit by two jet airplanes resulting in a fire fed by jet fuel. The electrical system is compromised resulting in high voltage, high amperage electrical arcing between the wires and the conduit. The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion. The air and other gasses are flowing with hurricane force speeds. The fire is sufficiently hot to exceed the plastic strength of the structural steel and the building collapses.

What about the iron microspheres? The iron has a thin layer of rust flakes that can be easily removed by sticky tape. The iron is heated red hot or hotter and subjected to hurricane force blast furnace like wind. The iron flakes are liberated as small particles and some iron is vaporized. Like drops of water, the iron flakes form molten spheres that solidify and the fume also condenses into spheres, the most efficient geometrical form. Incidentally, iron is not the only material that formed spheres during the event. Some building material is made of minerals containing aluminum and silicon and alumino‐silicate spheres were also observed in the dust.

The formation of iron and other type spheres at temperatures obtainable by the combustion of petroleum or coal based fuels is not a new or unique process. These spheres are the same as iron and alumino‐silicate spheres in the well‐studied fly ash formed from contaminants in coal as it is burned in furnaces.
Rich Lee

 

[ozeco41]

Here's a variation on an interesting challenge from Niels Harrit: has anyone demonstrated formation of iron rich spheres from heating up primer paint painted on steel or iron chips? Is this something Ivan or anyone else here can do?

Chris why do it?

How far do you want to follow these clowns?

They have no interest in truth. So their claims only fall into two arenas:

First the technical arena where they are down a long rabbit burrow of detail which is irrelevant to '9/11 truth'.

On the technical issues:
Anyone "watching from the side" in 2013 is either in one of the two extreme committed camps and nothing will shift them.

Others will be honest reasonable people who wont be interested in listening to kooks.

And, sadly, there will be the gullible people who have become victims of these charlatans. They are probably the only legitimate target group needing our help. But how effective is preaching to someone else's choir going to be? Realistically?

The only remaining reason for doing these experiments is for the pure scientific curiosity. It is a legitimate interest - provided is is not driven by some false belief that it will change something in 9/11 fantasy land. But there must be a lot more interesting things to be curious about than the dishonest ranting of charlatans.

The other arena is the psychology of delusion and where the boundaries are between self deluding con men and outright liars. The bottom line being that Gage, Harrit et al cannot be unaware that they are out on a limb no matter how much energy they put into persuading themselves.

I recall at the start of your video series and/or the Millette study cautioning about the need to draw the line in the sand. How would you or we know when we had gone far enough? And how would the line get drawn?

I think we are past that point. Obviously you don't.

So do you think that a line should be drawn at some stage?

When?

 

[Oystein]

Niels Harrit: "any material producing elemental iron from iron oxide must be thermitic." Is this true?

No, this is nonsense.
For two reasons:

1. Carbon monoxide, CO, produces elemental iron from iron oxide. That's how iron is usually prodcuced (coal -> burns incompletely to form CO -> is blown into furnace -> reduction of iron oxide ore to iron), and no one in their right mind ever calls this "thermitic"
2. Harrit hasn't competently and rigorously shown that elemental iron was produced from iron oxide in his red-gray chips tests.

Here's a variation on an interesting challenge from Niels Harrit: has anyone demonstrated formation of iron rich spheres from heating up primer paint painted on steel or iron chips? Is this something Ivan or anyone else here can do?

Yes, Harrit et al. have.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Deleted... temporarily...

 

[Sunstealer]

Niels Harrit: "any material producing elemental iron from iron oxide must be thermitic." Is this true?

No. Either his comment has been taken out of context or he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

The general thermite equation is this

M + AO → MO + A, where M is a metal or alloy, A is a metal or non-metal, MO and AO are their corresponding oxides (leaving out change in enthalpy H)

This reaction is a redox reaction, that is one reactant is reduced and the other is oxidised.

There are many different thermites and many of them do not use Fe as the metal oxide in the reaction at all! e.g.

For Al then M_xO_Y + Al --> M +Al₂O₃

So using copper as the metal oxide gives

3CuO + 2Al → 3Cu + Al₂O₃

No iron reduction in that thermite!

The claim that evidence or iron reduction is evidence of a thermite reaction is nonsense. The claimant has to show that oxidation has occurred and that both products of the reaction are present post reaction.

Mankind has been producing iron from iron oxide using a reduction process of burning Carbon (wood/charcoal/coal) to produce CO which reduces the oxide since the beginning of the "iron age" some 2000 years ago. Remember that Al was only isolated in 1827 so there was no way for people to use the classic thermite equation of

Fe₂O₃ + 2Al --> 2Fe + Al₂O₃

Anyone who says that evidence of iron reduction is evidence of the thermite reaction is talking rubbish.