Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

Which story? The one when she said she wasn't there? Did George ever say he wasn't there? The one that she claims she was there and home invaders broke in and killed him? Did George ever insist that anyone other then himself had shot Trayvon?

The cases have nothing to do with each other. George's story may not be exactly the same as the truth, but it does follow it to a degree, the details of what happened being off, not the overall picture (He saw Trayvon walking, thought he was suspicious, followed him, lost him, refound him, an altercation occured, he shot Trayvon). Her stories are so totally at odds with the evidence that they don't match up at all, not even as an overall picture.

It's unreasonable for you to expect this woman to get every detail of her story 100% correct. I don't think you understand just unreliable memory can be, especially after someone has suffered a trauma. There are studies in which you could read about this phenomenon, and I'm pretty sure someone already linked them in this thread.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's unreasonable for you to expect this woman to get every detail of her story 100% correct. I don't think you understand just unreliable memory can be, especially after someone has suffered a trauma. There are studies in which you could read about this phenomenon, and I'm pretty sure someone already linked them in this thread.

There is a minor difference between getting details wrong in a story and not even getting the story close at all, as in "I wasn't there, someone else did it."

But once again I'm not at all surprised at the beating up of straw that you are engaged in, it seems to be a staple of the pro-Trayvon camp when they are faced with the issues in their claims.

 

[johnny karate]

B And let's be clear, Martian wasn't small and it wasn't fifty pounds of muscle Zimmerman had on him.

So what is the muscle/fat ratio Zimmerman had in his extra 50 lbs? And how can you possibly know?

I think it's hilarious this meme keeps coming up.

For the record, Trayvon Martin was 6' 2" and only weighed 157 lbs. That's a skinny kid. Tall, yes, but also very skinny. (I'm 4 inches shorter than Martin and only weigh about 2 lbs less than him and I'm thin!)

This idea that Martin was some kind of super-athlete with the strength to overpower someone 50 lbs heavier than him who had at least one hand free is ludicrous and has no basis in reality.

 

[johnny karate]

There is a minor difference between getting details wrong in a story and not even getting the story close at all, as in "I wasn't there, someone else did it."

Since you're the expert, why don't you quantify for me exactly how many details a person in these circumstances is allowed to get wrong before we can question their honesty.

But once again I'm not at all surprised at the beating up of straw that you are engaged in, it seems to be a staple of the pro-Trayvon camp when they are faced with the issues in their claims.

I take issue with the bolded portion, because I'm not sure what straw man argument you think I'm making. And also, as you repeatedly pointed out, I've never actually been in a fight so how could I possibly know anything about beating up straw?

 

[tyr_13]

So what is the muscle/fat ratio Zimmerman had in his extra 50 lbs? And how can you possibly know?

I think it's hilarious this meme keeps coming up.

For the record, Trayvon Martin was 6' 2" and only weighed 157 lbs. That's a skinny kid. Tall, yes, but also very skinny. (I'm 4 inches shorter than Martin and only weigh about 2 lbs less than him and I'm thin!)

This idea that Martin was some kind of super-athlete with the strength to overpower someone 50 lbs heavier than him who had at least one hand free is ludicrous and has no basis in reality.

Strawman. Try again.

 

[johnny karate]

Strawman. Try again.

Was it as big as your straw man in which you pretended Unabogie claimed it was impossible for Zimmerman to have been killed by Martin?

Because that was my goal.

 

[WildCat]

But once again I'm not at all surprised at the beating up of straw that you are engaged in, it seems to be a staple of the pro-Trayvon camp when they are faced with the issues in their claims.

When straw is all you have, straw it is apparently.

 

[quadraginta]

Yes because "It doesn't always happen" == "It never happens at all"

Nice strawman though, do you beat it often?

My mistake.

See, I thought the assertion had been made that damage to the hands nearly never, if ever happens, and that anyone who had ever been in real street fights would know this. Thus supposedly disproving the opinions of anyone who hadn't.

I just pointed out that I have been in real street fights, and my own experience contradicted that assertion.

In fact, by my experience, I thought it was a rather bizarre claim to make.

 

[This is The End]

When straw is all you have, straw it is apparently.

That's ironic:

How many hits to the head does it take to kill or seriously injure someone?

How many hits to the head to you have to indure before having a reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury?

Do you have any evidence for these multiple hits to the head??

 

[WildCat]

That's ironic:

Ah yes, there's also a lot of denial on the Martin side, coupled with speculation unsupported by any evidence whatsoever (the "chamber check", he ran into a tree, Shellie gave him the broken nose, he hit himself on the back of the head with his own gun, he chased Martin down to detain him, he chased him with gun in hand, etc) along with actual woo (the so-called voice experts).

 

[Dan O.]

Ah yes, there's also a lot of denial on the Martin side, coupled with speculation unsupported by any evidence whatsoever (the "chamber check", he ran into a tree, Shellie gave him the broken nose, he hit himself on the back of the head with his own gun, he chased Martin down to detain him, he chased him with gun in hand, etc) along with actual woo (the so-called voice experts).

You are absolutely right. The lack of physical evidence where evidence would be expected under George's scenario leads to speculation of alternate scenario's.

Unless you are actually afraid to discover the truth, all possibilities should be explored.

 

[bookworm]

Your position depends on two things. First, you must reasonably feel that he may kill you. An unreasonable fear is not sufficient for a claim of self-defense. Two, to connect this up to Trayvon's killer, you have to believe George's story and not think he's lying about what really happened. I think his word is suspect and his story has huge inconsistencies and implausibilities. If that's a correct assessment, then none of what you say applies because George just made up the details in order to paint himself as a helpless victim. I'm not willing to give killers so much leeway when they lie, but it's a forum so all opinions get an opportunity here. YMMV.

Unabogie, I happen to think that all the evidence matches his story. I see no reason to believe he made it all up on the spur of the moment and got lucky.

 

[bookworm]

It depends upon who's doing the hitting, doesn't it? Trayvon Martin was two weeks past 16 years old, and George outweighed him by a full 50 pounds. And let's be honest, George certainly wasn't afraid of the kid or else he wouldn't have high-tailed it out of his truck and chased after that "******* who always gets away" with a gun in his holster. Furthermore, George was a former bar bouncer and an aspiring police officer. He's the kind of guy who rushes DEA officers for getting too rough with his buddies. In short, he's not the sort of guy who gets hit once and thinks he's going to melt into butter. He imagines himself a tough guy or else he wouldn't do those things.

That's the guy you want me to believe got popped once in the nose and couldn't get up and thought he was going to die at the bare hands of a 16 year old kid?

No, I think it is much more likely that the hot-headed guy with the restraining order against him for domestic abuse got hot-headed when the "suspect" fought him back and lost his temper and killed an unarmed kid. And then he proceeded to lie to the cops to cover his crime. To me, that's what the evidence shows.

I may agree with you here except that some 16 year old kids can be quite vicious when fighting. They are too young to realize the consequences of some of the actions performed when fighting.

 

[bookworm]

Whoops, the problem wasn't that Zimmerman got out of his car. The actual problem seems to be that he chased Martin without reason. If we believe his story (and I don't) then he gave Martin a strong reason to believe that he was reaching for a weapon. If we believe DD (who is far more believable than Zimmerman), than he outright committed battery on Martin. Either way, I see no reason to hold him unaccountable for his bizarre aggression towards Martin.

I don't agree that the evidence shows he chased Martin at all. I don't find DeeDee more believable either. I don't see any evidence at all that indicates who started an altercation and the available evidence and witness statements that show how it ended up support Z's version. Do I think he embellished what was said between the two? Yes, I think he probably did. I also think Martin had the opportunity to get home if he was worried about Z's actions. That tells me that either he wasn't worried or he was interested in a confrontation.

 

[bookworm]

The difference of course being that what Mumbles referred to actually took place.

What you're referring to is only what Zimmerman claims took place.

Oh, Mumbles was there? Sorry, I didn't know that.

 

[Noztradamus]

~~~~
I also think Martin had the opportunity to get home if he was worried about Z's actions. That tells me that either he wasn't worried or he was interested in a confrontation.

Well George had the opportunity to get to his truck if he was worried about M's actions. That tells me that either he wasn't worried or he was interested in a confrontation.

But George is the only one who was in a position to expect a confrontation. He knows Martin is there somewhere ahead of him. Martin has no evidence that George even got out of his truck - that action would seem unlikely, and a little bit scary.

 

[boooeee]

An informal poll (apologies if this has been covered before):

Who do you think was screaming help on the 911 call and how does that play into your evaluation of the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman? We don't know for sure, so feel free to say who you think was most likely the one screaming for help.

If you think George is guilty (more or less), would knowing that George was the one screaming for help change your mind?

If you think George is innocent (more or less), would knowing that Trayvon was the one screaming for help change your mind?

 

[bookworm]

Well George had the opportunity to get to his truck if he was worried about M's actions. That tells me that either he wasn't worried or he was interested in a confrontation.

But George is the only one who was in a position to expect a confrontation. He knows Martin is there somewhere ahead of him. Martin has no evidence that George even got out of his truck - that action would seem unlikely, and a little bit scary.

George was also expecting the police at any moment. Martin wasn't because, you see, in spite of the fact that he had a cell phone he didn't call the police.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I am confused because even though that motion names the State of Floida as the plaintiff, it demands information that only the FBI would have:

And the list goes on.

Why would the State of Florida be expected to have any of this information?

Because the FBI gave a copy of that information to the state, and not the defense.

Really, it's not complicated.

 

[bookworm]

An informal poll (apologies if this has been covered before):

Who do you think was screaming help on the 911 call and how does that play into your evaluation of the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman? We don't know for sure, so feel free to say who you think was most likely the one screaming for help.

If you think George is guilty (more or less), would knowing that George was the one screaming for help change your mind?

If you think George is innocent (more or less), would knowing that Trayvon was the one screaming for help change your mind?

If I knew that TM was the one screaming for help it would drastically change my opinion, I think. I do think it was Z screaming for help because that is what the witness said. Also, TM's father originally denied it was his son screaming.