Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

So everyone is blame but O'Mara because he can't get it together?

The weird part is that O'Mara is to blame if the alternative is blaming Zimmerman, because it has been argued that it was actually O'Mara who was responsible for the deception at the bond hearing, and not Zimmerman.

So for those keeping score at home, nothing is O'Mara's fault unless it might also be Zimmerman's fault in which case it is O'Mara's fault because it's never Zimmerman's fault.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

O'Mara is the one who requested the bonehead order.

If Lester is a bonehead for putting in the order, how is O'Mara not a bonehead for requesting her to?

I think you may be confused.

Here is what MOM requested:
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1212/amended_demand_for_specific_discovery_fbi.pdf

Which is not what Nelson put in the order.

At the DEC 11 hearing, Judge Nelson agreed that the state should turn over the info they had. Apparently they didn't.

I'll see if I can find her verbal ruling.

 

[bookworm]

*shrug* I wouldn't get out of my car to chase a stranger who was just walking down the street. And, assuming that I actually did do something that foolish, I'd take my lumps. And so, I see no reason why Zimmerman should be given immunity.

I may take my lumps until I felt he may kill me. Then I'd probably do what I had to do to live. Would you take your lumps to the point of dying for your stupidity in getting out of your car?

Edited to fix typo

 

[Unabogie]

I may take my lumps until I felt he may kill me. Then I'd probably do what I had to do to live. Would you take your lumps to the point of dying for your stupidity in getting out of your car?

Edited to fix typo

Your position depends on two things. First, you must reasonably feel that he may kill you. An unreasonable fear is not sufficient for a claim of self-defense. Two, to connect this up to Trayvon's killer, you have to believe George's story and not think he's lying about what really happened. I think his word is suspect and his story has huge inconsistencies and implausibilities. If that's a correct assessment, then none of what you say applies because George just made up the details in order to paint himself as a helpless victim. I'm not willing to give killers so much leeway when they lie, but it's a forum so all opinions get an opportunity here. YMMV.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If not, what differentiates the two cases, exactly?

You mean other than the 29 stab wounds, and slit throat as well as the gun shot to the face compared to a single gunshot to the chest?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Your position depends on two things. First, you must reasonably feel that he may kill you. An unreasonable fear is not sufficient for a claim of self-defense. Two, to connect this up to Trayvon's killer, you have to believe George's story and not think he's lying about what really happened. I think his word is suspect and his story has huge inconsistencies and implausibilities. If that's a correct assessment, then none of what you say applies because George just made up the details in order to paint himself as a helpless victim. I'm not willing to give killers so much leeway when they lie, but it's a forum so all opinions get an opportunity here. YMMV.

How many hits to the head does it take to kill or seriously injure someone?

How many hits to the head to you have to indure before having a reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I've been in street fights. Coal miners' bars where I grew up in West Virginia. Baltimore's Fell's Point in the early 70's, before it got all upscale and Yuppie, back when it was just the waterfront district that white collar types stayed away from after dark. NW DC around the same time, when the cops wouldn't even drive though there unless there was two of them in the car.

I've still got the scars on my knuckles to prove it. And a couple fingers that won't ever be exactly straight again.

Oh. Wait.

That can't be true, can it. An internet tough guy martial arts maven said so. No one ever gets a cut knuckle in a street fight.

Must be imaginary scars.

Yes because "It doesn't always happen" == "It never happens at all"

Nice strawman though, do you beat it often?

 

[Unabogie]

How many hits to the head does it take to kill or seriously injure someone?

How many hits to the head to you have to indure before having a reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury?

It depends upon who's doing the hitting, doesn't it? Trayvon Martin was two weeks past 16 years old, and George outweighed him by a full 50 pounds. And let's be honest, George certainly wasn't afraid of the kid or else he wouldn't have high-tailed it out of his truck and chased after that "******* who always gets away" with a gun in his holster. Furthermore, George was a former bar bouncer and an aspiring police officer. He's the kind of guy who rushes DEA officers for getting too rough with his buddies. In short, he's not the sort of guy who gets hit once and thinks he's going to melt into butter. He imagines himself a tough guy or else he wouldn't do those things.

That's the guy you want me to believe got popped once in the nose and couldn't get up and thought he was going to die at the bare hands of a 16 year old kid?

No, I think it is much more likely that the hot-headed guy with the restraining order against him for domestic abuse got hot-headed when the "suspect" fought him back and lost his temper and killed an unarmed kid. And then he proceeded to lie to the cops to cover his crime. To me, that's what the evidence shows.

 

[Unabogie]

You mean other than the 29 stab wounds, and slit throat as well as the gun shot to the face compared to a single gunshot to the chest?

So you're saying the evidence contradicts the defendant's story, so therefore it doesn't matter if she claims it was self-defense because her lies were exposed and the physical evidence suggests another reality and so she'll be convicted? You're helping me make my point.

 

[Mumbles]

I may take my lumps until I felt he may kill me. Then I'd probably do what I had to do to live. Would you take your lumps to the point of dying for your stupidity in getting out of your car?

Edited to fix typo

Whoops, the problem wasn't that Zimmerman got out of his car. The actual problem seems to be that he chased Martin without reason. If we believe his story (and I don't) then he gave Martin a strong reason to believe that he was reaching for a weapon. If we believe DD (who is far more believable than Zimmerman), than he outright committed battery on Martin. Either way, I see no reason to hold him unaccountable for his bizarre aggression towards Martin.

 

[johnny karate]

I think you may be confused.

Here is what MOM requested:
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1212/amended_demand_for_specific_discovery_fbi.pdf

I am confused because even though that motion names the State of Floida as the plaintiff, it demands information that only the FBI would have:

Names and identifying information of all agents and other FBI personnel who performed any duties in connection with this investigation

Copy of the initial request made to the FBI from whatever source which began the investigation.

Identification and description of the standards utilized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for opening or approving a preliminary investigation...

And the list goes on.

Why would the State of Florida be expected to have any of this information?

And O'Mara himself refers to the motion as the "Defendant's Amended Demand for Specific Discovery from the Federal Bureau of Investigation" on his own website.

Maybe someone better at deciphering legalese can make sense of it.

 

[johnny karate]

I may take my lumps until I felt he may kill me. Then I'd probably do what I had to do to live. Would you take your lumps to the point of dying for your stupidity in getting out of your car?

The difference of course being that what Mumbles referred to actually took place.

What you're referring to is only what Zimmerman claims took place.

 

[johnny karate]

How many hits to the head does it take to kill or seriously injure someone?

How many hits to the head to you have to indure before having a reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury?

I don't know.

How many hits to the head does the evidence indicate Zimmerman took?

 

[This is The End]

How many hits to the head does it take to kill or seriously injure someone?

How many hits to the head to you have to indure before having a reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury?

Do you have any evidence for these multiple hits to the head??

 

[PhantomWolf]

It depends upon who's doing the hitting, doesn't it? Trayvon Martin was two weeks past 16 years old, and George outweighed him by a full 50 pounds. And let's be honest, George certainly wasn't afraid of the kid or else he wouldn't have high-tailed it out of his truck and chased after that "******* who always gets away" with a gun in his holster. Furthermore, George was a former bar bouncer and an aspiring police officer. He's the kind of guy who rushes DEA officers for getting too rough with his buddies. In short, he's not the sort of guy who gets hit once and thinks he's going to melt into butter. He imagines himself a tough guy or else he wouldn't do those things.

That's the guy you want me to believe got popped once in the nose and couldn't get up and thought he was going to die at the bare hands of a 16 year old kid?

No, I think it is much more likely that the hot-headed guy with the restraining order against him for domestic abuse got hot-headed when the "suspect" fought him back and lost his temper and killed an unarmed kid. And then he proceeded to lie to the cops to cover his crime. To me, that's what the evidence shows.

Thanks for not answering the question, something that the pro-Trayvon side has never actually done. Want to try again and answer those two questions without all the ranting?

 

[PhantomWolf]

So you're saying the evidence contradicts the defendant's story, so therefore it doesn't matter if she claims it was self-defense because her lies were exposed and the physical evidence suggests another reality and so she'll be convicted? You're helping me make my point.

Which story? The one when she said she wasn't there? Did George ever say he wasn't there? The one that she claims she was there and home invaders broke in and killed him? Did George ever insist that anyone other then himself had shot Trayvon?

The cases have nothing to do with each other. George's story may not be exactly the same as the truth, but it does follow it to a degree, the details of what happened being off, not the overall picture (He saw Trayvon walking, thought he was suspicious, followed him, lost him, refound him, an altercation occured, he shot Trayvon). Her stories are so totally at odds with the evidence that they don't match up at all, not even as an overall picture.

The cases aren't similar in any way other than both are claiming self defence.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I don't know.

perhaps you should google it.

How many hits to the head does the evidence indicate Zimmerman took?

Nice sidestep but totally irrelevant to the question. Try again.

 

[tyr_13]

It depends upon who's doing the hitting, doesn't it? Trayvon Martin was two weeks past 16 years old, and George outweighed him by a full 50 pounds. And let's be honest, George certainly wasn't afraid of the kid or else he wouldn't have high-tailed it out of his truck and chased after that "******* who always gets away" with a gun in his holster. Furthermore, George was a former bar bouncer and an aspiring police officer. He's the kind of guy who rushes DEA officers for getting too rough with his buddies. In short, he's not the sort of guy who gets hit once and thinks he's going to melt into butter. He imagines himself a tough guy or else he wouldn't do those things.

That's the guy you want me to believe got popped once in the nose and couldn't get up and thought he was going to die at the bare hands of a 16 year old kid?

No, I think it is much more likely that the hot-headed guy with the restraining order against him for domestic abuse got hot-headed when the "suspect" fought him back and lost his temper and killed an unarmed kid. And then he proceeded to lie to the cops to cover his crime. To me, that's what the evidence shows.

Bullshido.

Yeah, he sounds like the kind of guy who rushes into a fight ignoring how unpredictable such engagements actually are. The same sort of guy who panics full of fear once a guy lands a good punch that blurs his vision with searing pain, nausea and vertigo. The same sort of guy who is so cocky he ends up getting his head smashed on the pavement by a sixteen year old. (Not that I'm saying that definitely what happened.)

I don't care if you think Zimmerman is guilty, but don't go around perpetuating myths around fights. The way you say it supports all those 'tough' smaller craps who pick fights with big guys and then turn everyone against the big guy for defending himself. The same kind of thinking that dismisses male victims of female physical abuse because they could 'just stop them'.

Having fifty pounds on someone doesn't mean it should be a forgone conclusion or even unlikely that the smaller person gets the upper hand. Hell, when I wrestled someone fifty pounds over me would still have been in my same weight category! And let's be clear, Martian wasn't small and it wasn't fifty pounds of muscle Zimmerman had on him.

Think Zimmerman is guilty but don't try to base it on fights being predictable. They aren't. Yes, he could have died at the hands of a sixteen year old kid. So can I and so can you.

 

[johnny karate]

Nice sidestep but totally irrelevant to the question. Try again.

Well, unless we're discussing this specific case, your random query about how many hits to the head it takes to kill someone is off-topic.

Perhaps you should take it to the Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology sub-forum.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well, unless we're discussing this specific case, your random query about how many hits to the head it takes to kill someone is off-topic.

Perhaps you should take it to the Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology sub-forum.

The question is totally relevant since without knowing how can we determine when a reasonable person would be in fear for their life? But keep avoiding it, I don't expect anything less from the pro-Trayvon camp. What is irrelevant to the question is how many were deal in this case.