Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

"Frank" is a member of this forum, though he hasn't been active, it is still against the rules to make personal attacks against forum members.

I took it as a joke Dan, as was my comment about Peggy and Peter. A little tongue and cheek. but point taken.

 

[Briars]

“Lots of people came and went through her house and she was unfortunately at the crossroads when this group came together.” De Felice also confirmed the contents of the statements that had been published in Italian newspapers but refused to add any further detail.

He said that the three had continually changed their stories and that things “just didn’t add up.” He explained:”Initially the American gave a version of events which we knew was not correct. “She buckled and made an admission of facts that we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in.

This is the link

She didn't call him "that bad man" in the first interrogation. They told her they had evidence. They showed her the response and told her that it meant she was going to meet him right away. Do you think that she sent a text that said she was going to meet him right away?

No one blames the police for looking at her phone. That would e a straw man.

She did tell them that he had said she didn't need to work. The issue was whether the bar was closed or slow They "knew she was lying" what do you think they did when they knew she was lying?

There is no doubt her statement ended the buckling interrogation. She gave them what they wanted: Patrick.

The clasp came from a heap of debris IIRC. The way things work is that all protocol must be followed and contamination must be proven not to possibly occurred, that's how it works. It is very odd that the only RS DNA was found on a part of a bra and not on the other, don't you think?

I do not accept that the cottage and the room were sealed from all entrance of the police. The recent fiddling by Napoleoni adds to the suspicion something untoward occurred.

Just a few final thoughts. The phone records turned out to be important. The call from Sollecito's father confirmed R had washed dishes and had a leak by 8:30. Amanda was scheduled to work so logically there is no reason to believe the dinner had not already occurred. Amanda later tried to say the dinner hour was later around 10 I believe. When presented with the 'crucial' phone evidence R changed his story and said she had gone out and as such had withdrawn her alibi. Taking this astounding information back to where Amanda was being questioned they find the text from Lumumba. They ask her if she responded , mistakenly she said no. Then when shown her the text she said ' Its him its him , he's bad'. I would saw the shock of being told S has just informed us you went out made her latch onto Lumumba.They may have thought she had given them their man, she may have needed a quick out to reduce her role to witness.She had no idea what else Sollecito might say. The weeks following where she didn't clear up her confusion about Lumumba nor did her mother (language barrier???) was telling. You have them at the apartment until 9:10, is that because that's when the movie ended..? I think the difficult clasp is a perfect place to find DNA. DNA requires moisture or friction to transfer. If his hands weren't sweaty a scraping hook could work,

 

[Grinder]

Here is a conspiracy theory. Peggy and Peter hacked into Injustice Anywhere and brought the site down!!!!

You need to start a new topic for what those too are up to.

"Frank" is a member of this forum, though he hasn't been active, it is still against the rules to make personal attacks against forum members.

Grinder thinks that rule is no longer enforced.

Briar it would be nice as Bookworm suggested to have a back and forth.

I am open to reasonable discussion. I think that dropping Curatolo would be a good starting point, because his testimony if not giving a complete alibi makes your fitting in the crime harder than getting into a wet suit. I know it crucial to have him to completely break their alibi.

I can't see the interrogation scene any other way than they got her to say what they wanted. Yes, it was only 2 1/2 hours in that session but it is also true that she had been questioned or in other ways under their eyes, for example the visit to the cottage for many hours in the preceding days. IIRC she stated in one of that day's documents that the police told her they had other evidence of her presence and his. It is beyond doubt that the police translator "helped" her recover memories.

I can say that I honestly wish they had recorded the interrogations with Raf and Amanda and that those recordings would come out. Do you also hope for that?

Please post a couple of questions you feel have been hand waved away. I promise to answer as best I can any question.

Btw, using probably or it could be or such doesn't bother me as we don't have all the transcripts and other detailed information we need to be positive.

 

[Bill Williams]

Much more likely to be a cleanup following the disappearance of Frank and his contributions!

funny.... I like it.

Me too. We're big boys and girls here, if we can take a few at Briars.... we have to take a few in return.

If course, the difference is, ours have some substance to them!!!! Lighten up folks!

 

[Bill Williams]

Just a few final thoughts. The phone records turned out to be important. The call from Sollecito's father confirmed R had washed dishes and had a leak by 8:30. Amanda was scheduled to work so logically there is no reason to believe the dinner had not already occurred. Amanda later tried to say the dinner hour was later around 10 I believe. When presented with the 'crucial' phone evidence R changed his story and said she had gone out and as such had withdrawn her alibi.

Raffaele addresses this in his book. He says that the cops pressured him by not allowing him to distinguish between events from Hallowe'en night from the events of Nov 1st. He asked to consult a calendar and they refused. This is part and parcel of what's wrong an interrogation at midnight - when cops want proper information they want their witnesses lucid and rested; when they don't they call them in late at night.

Taking this astounding information back to where Amanda was being questioned they find the text from Lumumba. They ask her if she responded , mistakenly she said no. Then when shown her the text she said ' Its him its him , he's bad'. I would saw the shock of being told S has just informed us you went out made her latch onto Lumumba.

No one else says that, except for those trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. First of all, the information you say is "astounding" also has another name. "Wrong" comes to mind.

Instead of checking this out, like the cops similarly later wouldn't do with the information about Lumumba either, instead they rush in with wrong information and the whole thing goes awry. Whatever it is you say about the two students, they did not control the cops rushing out and arresting people without confirmation.

And..... if they find the text from Lumumba, a text they ALSO get patently wrong, a text that in theory actually gives another alibi to Amanda.... where is that text? You see, if you accept that it was Guede involved, and not Lumumba, then what was that text supposed to have said that would cause this reaction in the police?? (Even if Amanda HAD blurted out his name?)

You keep missing, Briars, that you're not making a case against Lumumba, and neither am I. If a text came in from Lumumba, and this text (other than its timing around the time of the murder) said something which gave Amanda yet another alibi.... what was it supposed to have said which would cause the cops:

a) to change it's meaning as per the memorandums?
b) erase it?​

You see - you are making the same mistake John Folain makes in his book - the first sweeping chapter of Follain's book should be called, "Why the cops were right to initially suspect Knox and Sollecito." What you're missing from Follain's sweeping narrative is that his second great chapter should be called, 'Why the case fell apart at trial."

To add to this, de Felice is part of this narrative- he describes it well. "Knox buckled and told us what we already knew."

They may have thought she had given them their man, she may have needed a quick out to reduce her role to witness.She had no idea what else Sollecito might say. The weeks following where she didn't clear up her confusion about Lumumba nor did her mother (language barrier???) was telling.

No, this one you cannot have. By the next weekend, the police had both a secretly taped conversation between her and her mother where she recanted as well as enough written stuff to show she was being consistent. Once she had access to a lawyer, she did clear this up. Did the cops listen? No. They used this to spread the untruth about Knox: "She's always changing her story."

Trouble is: she was describing what was real. Lumumba did not do it. They blame or for yet again changing her story, then when they find out she's right, they never correct their accusation about her truthfulness.

They were not listening because their theory was that Lumumba WAS involved. I cannot see how you can say all this with a straight face if you know what transpires next.

You have them at the apartment until 9:10, is that because that's when the movie ended..? I think the difficult clasp is a perfect place to find DNA. DNA requires moisture or friction to transfer. If his hands weren't sweaty a scraping hook could work,

Which does not explain, then, the trace amount that is also consistent with others.

You are going in circles trying to implicate someone who "you know is guilty", yet you do not have the evidence.

 

[acbytesla]

Briars,

Is there a reason you haven't addressed Curatolo?

Do you acknowledge that he isn't credible given the time of death?

And if Curatolo is not credible, what evidence do you have that Amanda and Raffaele ever left his apartment?

 

[Grinder]

Just a few final thoughts. The phone records turned out to be important. The call from Sollecito's father confirmed R had washed dishes and had a leak by 8:30. Amanda was scheduled to work so logically there is no reason to believe the dinner had not already occurred. Amanda later tried to say the dinner hour was later around 10 I believe. When presented with the 'crucial' phone evidence R changed his story and said she had gone out and as such had withdrawn her alibi. Taking this astounding information back to where Amanda was being questioned they find the text from Lumumba. They ask her if she responded , mistakenly she said no. Then when shown her the text she said ' Its him its him , he's bad'.

The official line is that she was shown only her reply. It is not clear exactly when or how Raf came to tell his she left account. He does claim that he mixed up nights which is clear in the Mansey article. You obviously don't believe she went out without him. He doesn't seem the shrpest tool in the shed. She was asked where she was planning to meet him because of how they read the message.

I would saw the shock of being told S has just informed us you went out made her latch onto Lumumba.They may have thought she had given them their man, she may have needed a quick out to reduce her role to witness.She had no idea what else Sollecito might say.

Why not name Rudi at this point? The statement by de Felice still makes it clear that the police knew it was Patrick before they got her to say so.

The weeks following where she didn't clear up her confusion about Lumumba nor did her mother (language barrier???) was telling.

Once again, if you read the notes with an open mind she clearly states that she can't be sure of what she agreed to sign and that she could never testify to the presence of Patrick. Perhaps you have never seen the the note of the seventh out-takes from Mignini in court.

You have them at the apartment until 9:10, is that because that's when the movie ended..?

The time the court said showed the last human interaction although the defense says it is even later.

I think the difficult clasp is a perfect place to find DNA. DNA requires moisture or friction to transfer. If his hands weren't sweaty a scraping hook could work,

Yes that is true but he would be sweating with both hands and it would be likely that he put his hand on the other side of the bra and in fact Rudi's DNA was there. He was involved, according to you, in a very violent murder and there is no evidence of an extensive clean-up, yet no DNA. DNA transfer does not require much to transfer, that's why the lowest amount is called touch transfer. Did they find his DNA on the mat? In the sink? In the shower.

I'll give you that the ILE is not very competent and could have missed something but that means you too have to admit they did a bad job.

 

[Grinder]

Briars,

I would like to present another quick question/issue to you. Many PGP think that Massei made a mistake in not calling it premeditated. Do you?

If you do, then it makes it seem you would think that they would have planned it out. If they planned it and many PGP say that her texting MK the night before was because she was ready to kill or ar least prank her, then they would have had it planned for at least a day.

Now if the had it planned for a day it wouldn't have involved Rudi as there is no evidence at all of them meeting him on Halloween. No one has made that contention. It would seem then that they were ready with knife in hand and headed to the cottage. On their way to do the deed they bump into Rudi and decide to invite to the "party".

The inclusion of Rudi into the caper has always been the most difficult to accept for me. If they didn't plan to kill her, why did they bring the knife?

In addition to dropping Curatolo how about dropping the knife. It didn't match the bloody outline, it didn't match most of the wounds, it seems an unlikely choice of a knife to take because of size for concealment and use and there is no evidence of how it was moved. It makes the case a premeditated one and that makes Rudi more difficult to bring into the "party".

You will not get a thanks for stopping by here.

 

[Briars]

The official line is that she was shown only her reply. It is not clear exactly when or how Raf came to tell his she left account. He does claim that he mixed up nights which is clear in the Mansey article. You obviously don't believe she went out without him. He doesn't seem the shrpest tool in the shed. She was asked where she was planning to meet him because of how they read the message.




Why not name Rudi at this point? The statement by de Felice still makes it clear that the police knew it was Patrick before they got her to say so.



Once again, if you read the notes with an open mind she clearly states that she can't be sure of what she agreed to sign and that she could never testify to the presence of Patrick. Perhaps you have never seen the the note of the seventh out-takes from Mignini in court.



The time the court said showed the last human interaction although the defense says it is even later.



Yes that is true but he would be sweating with both hands and it would be likely that he put his hand on the other side of the bra and in fact Rudi's DNA was there. He was involved, according to you, in a very violent murder and there is no evidence of an extensive clean-up, yet no DNA. DNA transfer does not require much to transfer, that's why the lowest amount is called touch transfer. Did they find his DNA on the mat? In the sink? In the shower.

I'll give you that the ILE is not very competent and could have missed something but that means you too have to admit they did a bad job.

The statement of De Felice said no such thing. His statement confirms she had no alibi according to Sollecito.Sollecito's admission confirmed she went out.She filled in the blank and said it was the man in the text that was in question.Was Lumumba a suspect before? would he have been if not for her impulsive reply? The suspicion of Lumumba started when she claimed by error she didn't text back. Sollecito had somewhere to go Halloween there was no way he confused that night with the night that Amanda had work cancelled. Why name an accomplice who knew too much. she had seconds to think and decided to say she was only in the kitchen and gave only enough to stop the questioning . The removal of the bra during the staging could have had a clean dry hand.

 

[acbytesla]

Briars,

I would like to present another quick question/issue to you. Many PGP think that Massei made a mistake in not calling it premeditated. Do you?

If you do, then it makes it seem you would think that they would have planned it out. If they planned it and many PGP say that her texting MK the night before was because she was ready to kill or ar least prank her, then they would have had it planned for at least a day.

Now if the had it planned for a day it wouldn't have involved Rudi as there is no evidence at all of them meeting him on Halloween. No one has made that contention. It would seem then that they were ready with knife in hand and headed to the cottage. On their way to do the deed they bump into Rudi and decide to invite to the "party".

The inclusion of Rudi into the caper has always been the most difficult to accept for me. If they didn't plan to kill her, why did they bring the knife?

In addition to dropping Curatolo how about dropping the knife. It didn't match the bloody outline, it didn't match most of the wounds, it seems an unlikely choice of a knife to take because of size for concealment and use and there is no evidence of how it was moved. It makes the case a premeditated one and that makes Rudi more difficult to bring into the "party".

You will not get a thanks for stopping by here.

You can't be serious with the premeditation. Don't you think Grinder, that a some motive would be required for premeditation?

I know we are all just spit balling, but c'mon.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

misinformation

Speculation maybe but how is that different from speculating that she was so mistreated, and now even RS says he threatened too!!, so mistreated that she let Lumumba sit in Jail , and not fully remember he was innocent for 2 weeks. Speculation that Mignini masterminded the whole thing even though he thought they were innocent. Speculation that the clasp which lay protected under under the carpet in the sealed room somehow became contaminated with Sollecito's DNA. Speculation that the DNA mixed with blood blob in Filomena's room was not dropped by Amanda. You just speculate all can be explained by mistreatment , corruption or bad lab work. Any behavior that is odd such as changing alibi's. so what you say what does that mean?

Wow, that is a great deal of misinformation wedged into one paragraph. Ms. Knox took roughly 36 hours to say that she was not there (portions of the second memoriale of 7 November are available in Follain's book and in PM Mignini's cross examination). The clasp moved more than a meter and was noticeably dirtier. Describing a dirty carpet as protection is nonsense. Describing the room as sealed is simply false. A great deal went on in Meredith's room between 2 November and 18 December. There is a reason why one tries to limit the initial access to a crime scene, as I discussed here several weeks ago. Calling a luminol-positive blob "blood" does not make it so; you need to do a confirmatory test (with antibodies or at least by forming crystals of heme). Finally, both Amanda and Raffaele had two basic stories, what they said on 5-6 November, and what they have said on every other occasion.

If you cannot provide a comprehensive scenario of what happened, you have a bagful of nothing.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm waiting Briars.

What is your position on Curatolo's credibility? You said yesterday that the murder took place at 10:00 PM. But Curatolo said that Amanda and Raffaele were hanging around the Piazza Grimana from 9:30 to 11:30.

Or are you going to say the murder happened at 10:00 PM, disown Curatolo, and still insist that Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith but you just can't offer any evidence that puts Amanda and Raffaele at the cottage?

Are you going to disown Curatolo? Or are you going to stick with Curatolo and now say that Meredith was murdered after 11:30? A time far outside normal digestion. A time that contradicts where Meredith's cell phone was at 10:13 cell phone.

I really want to know where you stand on this.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm waiting Briars.

What is your position on Curatolo's credibility? You said yesterday that the murder took place at 10:00 PM. But Curatolo said that Amanda and Raffaele were hanging around the Piazza Grimana from 9:30 to 11:30.

Or are you going to say the murder happened at 10:00 PM, disown Curatolo, and still insist that Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith but you just can't offer any evidence that puts Amanda and Raffaele at the cottage?

Are you going to disown Curatolo? Or are you going to stick with Curatolo and now say that Meredith was murdered after 11:30? A time far outside normal digestion. A time that contradicts where Meredith's cell phone was at 10:13 cell phone.

I really want to know where you stand on this.

Are you out to lunch or something, AC? Curatolo cannot be dropped in view of his extraordinary accuracy:

To highlight the witness’ extraordinary accuracy there is, amongst other things, the fact that two members of the Perugia Scientific Police who on November 2, 2007 went on reconnaissance with equipment, Assistant Palmieri and Assistant Montagna, leaving the Questura [=police headquarters] to go to Via della Pergola where there had been a crime reported ‚around 1:40 PM – 1:45 PM‛ (cf. statements of Chief Insp. Claudio Cantagalli and Asst Chief Gioa Brocci, at the hearing of April 23, 2009, p. 86 to p. 126).

Btw. if you think this paragraph doesn't make any sense you aren't alone but, the thing is, the PGPs who worship Galati are stuck with Toto, like it or not.

 

[Grinder]

dupe

 

[Grinder]

You can't be serious with the premeditation. Don't you think Grinder, that a some motive would be required for premeditation?

I know we are all just spit balling, but c'mon.

If they carried the knife to the cottage that night, it would indicate premeditation. If they premeditated, it would be tougher to squeeze Rudi into the formula. It becomes absurd to believe they planned the attack and while skipping to the cottage ran into Rudi and invited him along.

If you insist that I name a possible motive, I will. Amanda was tired of Meredith whining about everything and really went ballistic when Meredith, after being brought to Le Chic by Amanda, accepted a bar tending audition at the same time as her hours were cut back. I can't think of many reasonable motives for murder.
.

 

[anglolawyer]

If they carried the knife to the cottage that night, it would indicate premeditation. If they premeditated, it would be tougher to squeeze Rudi into the formula. It becomes absurd to believe they planned the attack and while skipping to the cottage ran into Rudi and invited him along.

If you insist that I name a possible motive, I will. Amanda was tired of Meredith whining about everything and really went ballistic when Meredith, after being brought to Le Chic by Amanda, accepted a bar tending audition at the same time as her hours were cut back. I can't think of many reasonable motives for murder.
.

Not premeditated at all. Machiavelli had hypothesised they took the knife to have a fish dinner at the apartment due to the flood at Raffaele's place, the latter positively refusing even to contemplate cooking without it (an idea which you, Grinder, have supported) pausing only to take in the night air for a couple of hours in the Piazza. We can picture them there, staring at the stars in rapture, contemplating their repast under observation from the extraordinarily accurate Toto. Did he notice the fish? Must be in his evidence somewhere.

 

[Grinder]

The statement of De Felice said no such thing. His statement confirms she had no alibi according to Sollecito.Sollecito's admission confirmed she went out.She filled in the blank and said it was the man in the text that was in question.Was Lumumba a suspect before?

I think by the 5th the PLE had the record of the texts as the phone company according to Clander do keep those records. The PLE were tapping phone calls by then so it is reasonable to assume they had the phone records. De Felice said they knew what was correct and they made Amanda and tell them what they knew to be correct. She told them Patrick killed Meredith ergon: they knew Patrick had done it.

Would he have been if not for her impulsive reply? The suspicion of Lumumba started when she claimed by error she didn't text back. Sollecito had somewhere to go Halloween there was no way he confused that night with the night that Amanda had work cancelled.

Do you believe Amanda went out without Raf? I don't know what significance not remembering saying good night in a text is. The text was not important to anybody no matter guilt or innocence.

Why name an accomplice who knew too much. she had seconds to think and decided to say she was only in the kitchen and gave only enough to stop the questioning .

Why leave his evidence if you don't want him caught? Why did she leave the poop according to your theory? Why didn't they at least clean the visible footprints as they searched with her lamp on hands and knees. Why didn't she remove the blood drops in the bathroom and the bathmat. Why not throw it in the washer if you believe she started it? Turning Rudi in would at least be a step to solving the crime and she could make up a story about being threatened by him.

If she wanted him not to get caught she would have done much more to remove his evidence. Of course, I don't believe that any systematic cleaning occurred.

The removal of the bra during the staging could have had a clean dry hand.

Yes, it could be a dry hand, no doubt. But if a dry hand pulled hard on the bra it would leave DNA. Chris can give cites but it is easy to find information on how easily DNA transfers - Stefanoni found MK's DNA on the knife with only a few cells was it 6? No if Raf grabbed the bra and pulled it to cut it or tear it he would have left DNA.

I really don't understand why the PGP aren't more concerned with the lack of evidence in the murder room. It is obvious that a big cleanup did not occur.

If you want to improve your argument, I'd contend that Raf was wearing rubber gloves and the bra clasp punctured them and hence the DNA. One would think Raf would notice that and grab the clasp, but...

 

[Grinder]

Not premeditated at all. Machiavelli had hypothesised they took the knife to have a fish dinner at the apartment due to the flood at Raffaele's place, the latter positively refusing even to contemplate cooking without it (an idea which you, Grinder, have supported) pausing only to take in the night air for a couple of hours in the Piazza. We can picture them there, staring at the stars in rapture, contemplating their repast under observation from the extraordinarily accurate Toto. Did he notice the fish? Must be in his evidence somewhere.

What did the blind man say as he walked past the fish market?

It is conceivable that he would bring his knife for cooking and if Briar wishes to contend that I would not rule out his theory on that basis. However that wasw not Massei's logic and I'll bet a castle tower that it isn't Briars.

We haven't heard back from Briars as to whether or not he still believes in Curatolo.

I never can quite understand why the PGP don't see that some of their wacky witnesses make their case more difficult.

 

[anglolawyer]

Just a few final thoughts. The phone records turned out to be important. The call from Sollecito's father confirmed R had washed dishes and had a leak by 8:30. Amanda was scheduled to work so logically there is no reason to believe the dinner had not already occurred. Amanda later tried to say the dinner hour was later around 10 I believe. When presented with the 'crucial' phone evidence R changed his story and said she had gone out and as such had withdrawn her alibi. Taking this astounding information back to where Amanda was being questioned they find the text from Lumumba. They ask her if she responded , mistakenly she said no. Then when shown her the text she said ' Its him its him , he's bad'. I would saw the shock of being told S has just informed us you went out made her latch onto Lumumba.They may have thought she had given them their man, she may have needed a quick out to reduce her role to witness.She had no idea what else Sollecito might say. The weeks following where she didn't clear up her confusion about Lumumba nor did her mother (language barrier???) was telling. You have them at the apartment until 9:10, is that because that's when the movie ended..? I think the difficult clasp is a perfect place to find DNA. DNA requires moisture or friction to transfer. If his hands weren't sweaty a scraping hook could work,

It is gratifying to see this meme taking firm root. However, the PGPs should resist it to their last breath because, once it is accepted the text was suppressed, an act involving wide-spread collusion, probably including Mignini, the game is up. All the destroyed evidence (hard drives, recordings, CCTV footage) all the manufactured evidence (knife, clasp) and all the professional witnesses become easy to explain. You see, there is an inverse relationship between their logical connections and gravity (Grinder understands) and it all points unerringly to the same cause.

 

[Grinder]

It is gratifying to see this meme taking firm root. However, the PGPs should resist it to their last breath because, once it is accepted the text was suppressed, an act involving wide-spread collusion, probably including Mignini, the game is up. All the destroyed evidence (hard drives, recordings, CCTV footage) all the manufactured evidence (knife, clasp) and all the professional witnesses become easy to explain. You see, there is an inverse relationship between their logical connections and gravity (Grinder understands) and it all points unerringly to the same cause.

Anglo you are spot on. If the message could be shown to have been erased by the PLE intentionally the night of the 5th to 6th it would make the lack of a recording that much more suspicious as well as all the iffy work they did.

Napoleoni latest brush with the law regarding fiddling in the data base system adds to suspicion even without the message being erased theory.