Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Rudy said that he met Amanda one time and smoked pot with her at the boys downstairs. He said he saw her at Le Chic but they never spoke there or with her again. But we know that he took an interest in Amanda. There is no evidence that they ever spoke with each other than once.

There is no evidence that Rudy ever spoke to Raffaele, ever. Not once.

We know for a fact that Amanda was at Raffaele's flat at 8:50 and computer evidence puts them at Raffaele's after that.

You have them meeting someone which there is no evidence of any kind of of a friendship and joining together with this person to murder a girl for no reason and parting ways within an hour?

Seriously?

 

[acbytesla]

Duplicate

 

[Briars]

According to Rudy the murder took place around 9:20 or 9:30.

And the guys in the car said they didn't see anything. Did Rudy just run by them and they didn't see him?

You're saying that Amanda and Raffaele had already been there and gone by 10:13? That they left Raffaele's flat at what time? 9:10? 9:20? 9:30? So Curatolo's testimony is out.

And then what happened? That Amanda and Raffele walked the ten minutes to the cottage murdered Meredith quickly and then hurried out of the cottage to ditch the phones leaving Rudy at the cottage? Rudy then leaves on his own and goes to his friends house? Then Amanda and Raffaele come back and stage a break in? You talked about the logistics of the next morning. Can't you see that the logistics of this is nonsensical?

Why? Why would Amanda and Raffaele get up from their cozy lover's apartment and together run to the cottage to murder Amanda's roommate that neither really knew very well? Why would Raffaele do that? He knew Amanda for what? A week? Why would Amanda do that? Did the romantic comedy Amelie whip them both into a psychotic frenzy? Or do you think marijuana made them drug crazy and they didn't know what they were doing?

Do you really believe that it was over sex?
Or 300 Euros?
Or some non-existent tension that nobody attested to in court?
Only the day before Meredith drew a tattoo on Amanda. Doesn't sound like real tension to me.

What friendship. Didn't she say she only knew her a month? Didn't she laugh kiss, and pull faces at the Questura. Sollecito himself was aware that looked bad. Why not go to the memorial of your good friend? This behavior speaks more about the 'friendship' than a Halloween tattoo. They had an hour, a free night that may have included an outing to get drugs. A chance meeting with Guede at the court(,Amanda had said Lumumba in her story) a trip to the cottage to party. A fight over money involving Meredith was possible. No explanation has been given as to the extra cash Amanda deposited or had on hand after the murder. They admitted to having a foggy memory due to drug use. Who knows if all three of the defendants had some sort of impulse that collectively caused the events of that night.Murders usually unplanned and hard to understand.

 

[Grinder]

Since I can't answers to direct questions, I'll try to do it.

Do you subscribe to the theory that Curatolo, Kokomani, Quintavalle and Nara are all believable witnesses?

Yes, I do. They are all good citizens that are telling the truth.

Does it not trouble you that not even Massei believed Koko?

No, not in the least. When Massei disagrees with Mignini he is in error.

Does it not trouble you that Cura was a charged heroin dealer and admitted user that didn't come forward until a cub reporter recruited him, after not knowing anything when asked by the police the next day, that saw buses that weren't there and coincidentally had been a witness in a couple of other major cases? Do you believe a a person high on heroin, a extreme mind altering drug, could ever be a credible witness on something that had occurred a year before?

So many questions. One of my PGP went to Perugia and looked into his eyes and while not noticing his pinned pupils determined that he was a good reliable witness. In Italy most witnesses only come forward after talking with a young reporter. He probably was asked the wrong questions by the police or wasn't on H and isn't as clear when straight. The buses were a detail that would only be important if it was Amanda that got it wrong. He was outside a lot so witnessing multiple murders is normal. I think that since heroin isn't an hallucinogen there is no issue and time doesn't make memories fade.

Do you believe that a later to be convicted coke dealer, Koko, drove up to a bag that turned into Amanda and Raf?

I'm sure he saw them there.

Do you believe that an article in a paper that came out four years after the trial saying someone Amanda had on her phone list was a coke dealer has any weight at all in guilt or innocence.

You bet. No one has proven that it isn't the case and people on PG sites have repeated it a thousand times which show up on a Google search so it must be true.

Do you believe that she was involved in a prank in Seattle? If so, why do believe that the victim or one of her friends didn't sell that story. Have you told people on your site that they shouldn't use the prank story because it was only a post on the Slog and has no verification?

Of course it's true. Marriott told everyone in Seattle to keep their mouths shut. Besides everyone in Seattle is rich and don't need money from papers.

Do you correct your PG friends on the noise ticket party? Do you make it clear that she was given the ticket as the renter of the house not because of her personal actions? Do you understand that she didn't go to court because it was just a ticket?

Mignini read the tab story into the record so it's true. The PI story where they have the actually ticket language was a result of the Knox family pulling strings and altering the ticket.

Why do you think that Quintavalle didn't come forward before the same cub reporter talked him into it? Why didn't he share this very significant detail with the cop when interviewed the week of the crime?

They didn't ask the right questions and besides he had a store to run.

Why do you think the judges denied a noise test to see what Nara could have heard?

Why would this be important. We know what happened. Why waste time and money.

 

[Grinder]

What friendship. Didn't she say she only knew her a month? Didn't she laugh kiss, and pull faces at the Questura. Sollecito himself was aware that looked bad. Why not go to the memorial of your good friend? This behavior speaks more about the 'friendship' than a Halloween tattoo.

Here look at my left hand while I do the trick with my right.

They had an hour, a free night that may have included an outing to get drugs. A chance meeting with Guede at the court(,Amanda had said Lumumba in her story) a trip to the cottage to party.

What hour? They were at the flat until 9:15 at least. Curatolo would have noticed the interplay of the couple that were already there when he arrived at 9:30 so no chance before then, right. Still believing Cura? Remember he recalled them because they were there and looking over the edge.

A fight over money involving Meredith was possible. No explanation has been given as to the extra cash Amanda deposited or had on hand after the murder.

Did the prosecution miss this completely? What extra cash? How much cash did she have on hand? Please give any official cite. They must have recorded what she had and they must have looked at her bank records.

They admitted to having a foggy memory due to drug use. Who knows if all three of the defendants had some sort of impulse that collectively caused the events of that night.Murders usually unplanned and hard to understand.

Yes, hard to understand. Murders may usually be unplanned or not but usually they make some sort of sense. I don't like the argument they had no motive and were good kids but you add nothing to the proof of guilt with a vague statement starting with "who knows".

It sure would be if you would answer some of the basic question such as what witnesses you believe.

Why do you think that Rudi admitted to being there when she died yet said AK wasn't there? What did Rudi tell the Germans about the crime?

 

[Bill Williams]

What friendship. Didn't she say she only knew her a month? Didn't she laugh kiss, and pull faces at the Questura. Sollecito himself was aware that looked bad. Why not go to the memorial of your good friend? This behavior speaks more about the 'friendship' than a Halloween tattoo. They had an hour, a free night that may have included an outing to get drugs. A chance meeting with Guede at the court(,Amanda had said Lumumba in her story) a trip to the cottage to party. A fight over money involving Meredith was possible. No explanation has been given as to the extra cash Amanda deposited or had on hand after the murder. They admitted to having a foggy memory due to drug use. Who knows if all three of the defendants had some sort of impulse that collectively caused the events of that night.Murders usually unplanned and hard to understand.

This is your case? Give your head a shake.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

an overview of the bra clasp DNA profile

I've mentioned the full DNA profile on the clasp and how I think it got there. I find it interesting how the talk about that DNA used to revolve around contamination or outright planting. Now its slowly morphed so its not even his DNA! just like the children's game of telephone.

You have repeatedly failed to respond to my comments that tried to explain why it is impossible to say that Raffaele's complete profile is present. In brief it is because Raffaele and Meredith share many alleles, and the peaks corresponding to Meredith's profile were much larger. In addition, there are stutter peaks that are associated with Meredith's alleles that may or may not be coincident with real alleles from other contributors, including Raffaele. More importantly, the PG community routinely violates an axiom of DNA forensics: the presence of DNA gives little information on the time or manner (primary transfer versus secondary transfer versus contamination versus planting) in which it was deposited. Therefore, even if I were to concede for argument's sake that Raffaele's putative profile was complete and larger than the other contributors, it would not mean much.

A good exercise would be to to repeat what Dror and Hampikian did in an academic study: give the bra clasp profile to many forensic scientists and ask them to interpret it. Based on their study, there is a good chance that there would be nonuniformity of opinion about whether or not Raffaele could be excluded as a contributor based on the autosomal profile. Dr. Tagliabracci's testimony is enlightening in this regard. Some of Raffaele's putative profile have medium sized peak heights (ca. 200-400 RFU). However, there are peaks in the autosomal profile that are bigger than the smallest peaks of what might be Raffaele's profile. One school of thought is that one should try to choose peaks of similar heights (barring degradation and stochastic effects) the peaks heights for a profile should all be similar. That issue is why it is quite reasonable to disagree about whether or not Raffaele's profile is even present. Massei's reasoning on this question is extremely questionable and appears to violate another fundamental principle of forensic genetics.

My own opinion is that Raffaele's DNA is more likely to be present than not. My reason for believing this is that he cannot be excluded as a contributor to in the YSTR DNA profile. IMO in order of decreasing probabilities his DNA got there from contamination outside the lab, from planting, from secondary/tertiary transfer not caused by the forensic police, from contamination inside the lab, or from primary transfer.

 

[Grinder]

You have repeatedly failed to respond to my comments that tried to explain why it is impossible to say that Raffaele's complete profile is present. In brief it is because Raffaele and Meredith share many alleles, and the peaks corresponding to Meredith's profile were much larger. In addition, there are stutter peaks that are associated with Meredith's alleles that may or may not be coincident with real alleles from other contributors, including Raffaele. More importantly, the PG community routinely violates an axiom of DNA forensics: the presence of DNA gives little information on the time or manner (primary transfer versus secondary transfer versus contamination versus planting) in which it was deposited. Therefore, even if I were to concede for argument's sake that Raffaele's putative profile was complete and larger than the other contributors, it would not mean much.

A good exercise would be to to repeat what Dror and Hampikian did in an academic study: give the bra clasp profile to many forensic scientists and ask them to interpret it. Based on their study, there is a good chance that there would be nonuniformity of opinion about whether or not Raffaele could be excluded as a contributor based on the autosomal profile. Dr. Tagliabracci's testimony is enlightening in this regard. Some of Raffaele's putative profile have medium sized peak heights (ca. 200-400 RFU). However, there are peaks in the autosomal profile that are bigger than the smallest peaks of what might be Raffaele's profile. One school of thought is that one should try to choose peaks of similar heights (barring degradation and stochastic effects) the peaks heights for a profile should all be similar. That issue is why it is quite reasonable to disagree about whether or not Raffaele's profile is even present. Massei's reasoning on this question is extremely questionable and appears to violate another fundamental principle of forensic genetics.

My own opinion is that Raffaele's DNA is more likely to be present than not. My reason for believing this is that he cannot be excluded as a contributor to in the YSTR DNA profile. IMO in order of decreasing probabilities his DNA got there from contamination outside the lab, from planting, from secondary/tertiary transfer not caused by the forensic police, from contamination inside the lab, or from primary transfer.

By jove you've done. Beyond all reasonable doubt this stuff is so complicated that independent experts should be hired by the court to help the judges figure this all out and until a court does that the verdict will be suspect.

 

[acbytesla]

What friendship. Didn't she say she only knew her a month?

I'm not sure that they were friends but Filomena said they spent quite a bit of time together while Laura and her spent time together. They met on September 20th. They were roomies for all of 6 weeks. They were friendly acquaintances. They were becoming friends.

Didn't she laugh kiss, and pull faces at the Questura. Sollecito himself was aware that looked bad.

So? Is that evidence of anything? What difference does it make that Amanda kissed or laughed at the Questura on November 5th? Or even the next day? Tell me what is normal after someone dies? I've been through a lot of death. Ever been to an Irish wake Briars? Tell me what is the right way to react when someone that dies after you've known them a month? Hell, I played golf with my brother the day after my mom died. It was totally surreal. But we tried to laugh.

Why not go to the memorial of your good friend? This behavior speaks more about the 'friendship' than a Halloween tattoo.

Let's see, how many hours had Amanda and Raffaele spent between police interviews, talking with relatives, worrying about everything including what they're next step was going to be? You're reading ink blots, this is not evidence of anything.

They had an hour, a free night that may have included an outing to get drugs. A chance meeting with Guede at the court(,Amanda had said Lumumba in her story) a trip to the cottage to party.

In fact they couldn't have had an hour if Meredith's phone was 40O meters away at 10:13. They were at Raffaele's at 9:10 and there is even evidence of them being at Raffaele's at 9:30. Add in the walk from Raffaele's to Amanda'a and now, how much time is there?

Also is there any evidence that they even left Raffaele's? Any CCTV coverage? There are three CCTV cameras on on the corner of Via Ariodante and Corso Garibaldi right across from the Piazza Grimana. If Amanda and Raffaele went to the cottage, than surely you can present some CCTV coverage from one of those 3 cameras that shows Amanda or Raffaele passing by at that time. Did the police show footage from any of those 3 cameras? No. So this is total speculation and not backed up by anything except a wild story told by a homeless heroin addict whose story makes no sense, especially when you take into account that he couldn't tell the difference between October 31 and November 1. Please show me something more than they might have.

A fight over money involving Meredith was possible.

Anything is possible, but is it likely? Amanda had lots of money, so why would Amanda fight with Meredith over money? There is also NO evidence at all that Amanda and Meredith EVER fought. And this is according to court testimonies.

So why do you speculate that they fought on this particular night when they had NEVER fought before?

No explanation has been given as to the extra cash Amanda deposited or had on hand after the murder.

What cash? Is this in the court records somewhere? Does Massei or Hellman mention it? So why are you contending something that is not in evidence?
.

They admitted to having a foggy memory due to drug use.
Who knows if all three of the defendants had some sort of impulse that collectively caused the events of that night.

Who knows? That is the appropriate question. Nobody knows is the right answer, so how can you justify speculating that? Amanda and Raffaele admitted to smoking marijuana and have a foggy memory. Marijuana almost never leads to violence. In fact it is a depressant and has a calming and mellowing effect. About the only thing in danger after smoking pot is the bag of Doritos in the pantry. And there is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drugs. Unless I missed a toxicology screen that the prosecutors performed on Raffaele and Amanda? No, that isn't in evidence either, is it Briars?

Murders usually unplanned and hard to understand.

No, not usually. Some murders may be unplanned and hard to understand. But they are the exception. In fact, most murders have real proximate causes and reasons. They usually involve people with histories of violence or known psychological problems or people with motives like jealousy, revenge or financial gain. And as we know like everything else you just mentioned It is not in evidence and is pure speculation.

 

[Supernaut]

By jove you've done. Beyond all reasonable doubt this stuff is so complicated that independent experts should be hired by the court to help the judges figure this all out and until a court does that the verdict will be suspect.

Where does Jupiter or any other god come into this?

The rest of your post is gibberish.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

let me try to clarify

One PG interpretation of the extra peaks on the clasp (belonging neither to Raffaele nor to Meredith) is that they are small enough in height and/or in number that they can be explained as the result of environmental contamination but that Raffaele's DNA cannot be explained in the same way. This explanation can be seriously questioned on two grounds. One is that Raffaele's putative peaks are not much higher than the the extra ones. Two (and much more serious) is that this interpretation ignores the axiom I discussed in my previous message: DNA cannot be interrogated about the time or manner of its being deposited. I am aware of no absolute rule that says that primary transfer will always produce stronger or more complete profiles than secondary transfer, for example.

Much of the rest of my earlier post can be summarized: Interpretation of DNA mixtures is much more difficult and subjective than the interpretation of single profiles. IMO there may be improvements in mixture interpretation in the future.
EDT
I am not troubled by the presence of what I believe to be Raffale's DNA on the clasp for a number of reasons. One of them is that there are a number of routes of secondary/tertiary transfer that are plausible.

A separate issue is whether the clasp and the luminol blobs should even have been entered as evidence. For reasons I have already given, I am close to the point of saying that nothing collected on 18 December should have counted as evidence (at the very least, it is of dubious quality). Of all of the evidence collected on that date only the footprints were almost certainly not caused by the police; the police might have inadvertantly introduced luminol-positive material into Filomena's room as well as inadvertantly introduced Raf's DNA onto the clasp. However, it is hard to see how they could have been responsible for the prints in the hallway. That remains a bit of a mystery IMO.

 

[Supernaut]

What friendship. Didn't she say she only knew her a month? Didn't she laugh kiss, and pull faces at the Questura. Sollecito himself was aware that looked bad. Why not go to the memorial of your good friend? This behavior speaks more about the 'friendship' than a Halloween tattoo. They had an hour, a free night that may have included an outing to get drugs. A chance meeting with Guede at the court(,Amanda had said Lumumba in her story) a trip to the cottage to party. A fight over money involving Meredith was possible. No explanation has been given as to the extra cash Amanda deposited or had on hand after the murder. They admitted to having a foggy memory due to drug use. Who knows if all three of the defendants had some sort of impulse that collectively caused the events of that night.Murders usually unplanned and hard to understand.

Isn't this all rather old?

Really, is this the best you people can do?

The Kerchers (and their shyster, Maresca), are never going to get a PENNY from the Knox, Mellas [edit>>] AND Sollecito "clans", and they better get used to it (unless the latter decide that that the former really are deserving of some charity - stranger things have happened).

Eat it, you reprobate.

 

[Thitical Crinker]

Hate to go OT, but is the IA forum down? For the last 2 days I get a "Fatal Error"" when I try to go there. The IA website loads fine but the forum does not.

 

[Supernaut]

Hate to go OT, but is the IA forum down? For the last 2 days I get a "Fatal Error"" when I try to go there. The IA website loads fine but the forum does not.

Yeh, same here.

 

[Thitical Crinker]

Thanks for replying. Thought it might be only me.

 

[Briars]

I'm not sure that they were friends but Filomena said they spent quite a bit of time together while Laura and her spent time together. They met on September 20th. They were roomies for all of 6 weeks. They were friendly acquaintances. They were becoming friends.

So? Is that evidence of anything? What difference does it make that Amanda kissed or laughed at the Questura on November 5th? Or even the next day? Tell me what is normal after someone dies? I've been through a lot of death. Ever been to an Irish wake Briars? Tell me what is the right way to react when someone that dies after you've known them a month? Hell, I played golf with my brother the day after my mom died. It was totally surreal. But we tried to laugh.

Yes normal to laugh at bittersweet memories of a loved one and sharing that. This was different it was a horrible murder days earlier she was just having a good time with her boyfriend at the Questura not normal. An example of her lack of social awareness the kind that irritated her roommates. Why do you think Sollecito mentioned her behavior at the Questura and how it looked in his book? A 5 minute walk from Sollecito's to the cottage I believe.



Anything is possible, but is it likely? Amanda had lots of money, so why would Amanda fight with Meredith over money? There is also NO evidence at all that Amanda and Meredith EVER fought. And this is according to court testimonies.
So why do you speculate that they fought on this particular night when they had NEVER fought before?


What cash? Is this in the court records somewhere? Does Massei or Hellman mention it? So why are you contending something that is not in evidence?
.


The 560.00 deposit was mentioned by a family friend on this site I believe she made that bank deposit as well as having 200 euro on her. If someone can explain it it would clear up where it came from.. Her job paid little so it is a curious amount equal to the rent money. They may have not physically fought but Meredith complained to her sister about Amanda.



Who knows? That is the appropriate question. Nobody knows is the right answer, so how can you justify speculating that? Amanda and Raffaele admitted to smoking marijuana and have a foggy memory. Marijuana almost never leads to violence. In fact it is a depressant and has a calming and mellowing effect. About the only thing in danger after smoking pot is the bag of Doritos in the pantry. And there is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drugs. Unless I missed a toxicology screen that the prosecutors performed on Raffaele and Amanda? No, that isn't in evidence either, is it Briars?



No, not usually. Some murders may be unplanned and hard to understand. But they are the exception. In fact, most murders have real proximate causes and reasons. They usually involve people with histories of violence or known psychological problems or people with motives like jealousy, revenge or financial gain. And as we know like everything else you just mentioned It is not in evidence and is pure speculation.

Speculation maybe but how is that different from speculating that she was so mistreated, and now even RS says he threatened too!!, so mistreated that she let Lumumba sit in Jail , and not fully remember he was innocent for 2 weeks. Speculation that Mignini masterminded the whole thing even though he thought they were innocent. Speculation that the clasp which lay protected under under the carpet in the sealed room somehow became contaminated with Sollecito's DNA. Speculation that the DNA mixed with blood blob in Filomena's room was not dropped by Amanda. You just speculate all can be explained by mistreatment , corruption or bad lab work. Any behavior that is odd such as changing alibi's. so what you say what does that mean?

 

[Supernaut]

Speculation maybe but how is that different from speculating that she was so mistreated, and now even RS says he threatened too!!, so mistreated that she let Lumumba sit in Jail , and not fully remember he was innocent for 2 weeks. Speculation that Mignini masterminded the whole thing even though he thought they were innocent. Speculation that the clasp which lay protected under under the carpet in the sealed room somehow became contaminated with Sollecito's DNA. Speculation that the DNA mixed with blood blob in Filomena's room was not dropped by Amanda. You just speculate all can be explained by mistreatment , corruption or bad lab work. Any behavior that is odd such as changing alibi's. so what you say what does that mean?

Probably beyond you, but you should edit/paragraph your replies point-by-point.

As it is, you come across as ignorant.

Perhaps you are ignorant, I don't know.

 

[Grinder]

Speculation maybe but how is that different from speculating that she was so mistreated, and now even RS says he threatened too!!, so mistreated that she let Lumumba sit in Jail , and not fully remember he was innocent for 2 weeks.

You can't answer the simple question. What did De Felice mean when he said that his men questioned her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct, which was that Patrick had killed Meredith?

It is not speculation it is the first hand account of Amanda, Raf and Rudi. They all reported mistreatment. Rudi told his story and has not been charged with any crime so it must be true,no?

How could Amanda do more than her notes to make it clear she couldn't verify that he was there as the police had insisted he was? She couldn't say he didn't do it because she couldn't know, even if she felt bad for telling the police what they knew to be correct.

[quoteSpeculation that Mignini masterminded the whole thing even though he thought they were innocent.[/quote]

I don't think that he did that at first.

Speculation that the clasp which lay protected under under the carpet in the sealed room somehow became contaminated with Sollecito's DNA.

The PLE secured something, please. It wasn't under a carpet and the PLE certainly had ample chance to enter the cottage. IIRC there were shots of the cottage with the door open. Later people entered and had a party while it was sealed and took the mattress. As Chris has described it may be his DNA or maybe not, but you must answer how this key piece of evidence that was photographed on day one was missed for collection.

Speculation that the DNA mixed with blood blob in Filomena's room was not dropped by Amanda.

There is no trail leading to this blob. The police walked in and out of rooms. They picked things up and dropped them other places. You are speculating that she somehow dropped the blood with her DNA in F's room. Are there any other such blood drops?

 

[Briars]

Probably beyond you, but you should edit/paragraph your replies point-by-point.

As it is, you come across as ignorant.

Perhaps you are ignorant, I don't know.

Getting too emotionally attached to your position isn't the best way to debate.

 

[Grinder]

Getting too emotionally attached to your position isn't the best way to debate.

He's not debating. How about answering a few of the questions?