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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Clayton Moore said:
Many parents of children who became autistic along with severe bowel disorders noticed it soon after their child got a MMR jab. Doesn't that mean something?
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Sorry, I should have been more specific/detailed. To the extent that the anecdotal evidence of parents counts as reliable scientific evidence, your observation that vaccines can cause fevers and seizures is only relevant if those parental anecdotes included reports of fevers or seizures shortly before they observe the onset of autism. So, even if we agreed with you about the weight to give to anecdotal evidence, we'd still find your observation to be irrelevant, since those anecdotal reports say nothing about fevers or seizures shortly before the onset of autism.
 
To be more specific: any observation may suggest exploring a hypothesis further. An observation by parents that a given event occurred in a child after a vaccination may be worth pursuing with follow up research. The first question to ask is: is this event actually seen statistically more often after a vaccination than in the absence of a vaccination? In the case of MMR and autism, the research has been performed and the answer is: no.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Many parents of children who became autistic along with severe bowel disorders noticed it soon after their child got a MMR jab. Doesn't that mean something?
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So tell us that was documented in the 1970s and 1980s in the USA after the MMR vaccine was introduced there in 1971 by citing those studies.

That would mean that Wakefield had over twenty years of data to go on, instead of just making it up.
 
Well, we are well past 4,000 posts now.

Has Clayton ever come up with his "evidence" that the MMR vaccine causes autism?
 
crhkrebs said:
Well, we are well past 4,000 posts now.

Has Clayton ever come up with his "evidence" that the MMR vaccine causes autism?
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Quite often.


Pathetically, in a short period of time relative to the over 30 year autism "epidemic" of 1 1/2 year old toddlers, the cause of autism has gone from we can't figure it out to the year or so old we know it's genetic and every child has it. Some just worse than others.
Two other alleged causes, old fathers and parents with above average intelligence, are :pigsfly worthy.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Pathetically, in a short period of time relative to the over 30 year autism "epidemic" of 1 1/2 year old toddlers, the cause of autism has gone from we can't figure it out to the year or so old we know it's genetic and every child has it. Some just worse than others.....
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The MMR vaccine has been around for over forty years. Please cite the 1970s and 1980s studies showing the MMR vaccine is associated with autism.
 
Giordano said:
An observation by parents that a given event occurred in a child after a vaccination may be worth pursuing with follow up research. The first question to ask is: is this event actually seen statistically more often after a vaccination than in the absence of a vaccination?
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Well, perhaps Moore believes that parents knowing their children so well somehow allows them to distinguish between correlation which indicates causation from correlation which is mere coincidence. After all, he seems to believe that parents knowing their children well would allow them to tell if their pediatrician was lying about the results of tests performed on their child.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Quite often.


Pathetically, in a short period of time relative to the over 30 year autism "epidemic" of 1 1/2 year old toddlers, the cause of autism has gone from we can't figure it out to the year or so old we know it's genetic and every child has it. Some just worse than others.
Two other alleged causes, old fathers and parents with above average intelligence, are :pigsfly worthy.
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A few points:
1. The genetic studies show some autism is genetic- no one has claimed that is true for all autism, although it may be, or not. This has been made clear to you here.
2. Now you've gone from "Why can't scientists find a cause" to not liking he cause that has been found. Apparently the only acceptable cause in your mind is the one that has been disproven: vaccination.
3. Old fathers are one of the genetic causes- they are not one of the other causes. Mutations and other genetic changes accumulate in older gametes. That's why older women have higher risks of trisomy 21 and similar genetic problems.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Many parents of children who became autistic along with severe bowel disorders noticed it soon after their child got a MMR jab. Doesn't that mean something?
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The vast majority experienced no problems. Doesn't that mean something?
 
LSSBB said:
Ahhhh, yet another cryptic response. Why is clarity so difficult? Exactly what is your criterea for believing a parent? Or do you find something in their statements to cause you to reject the ones who disagree with you?
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The criterion for believing a parent is that what they say agrees with Clayton's position. The same criterion would likely be used for evidence if he could find any that agreed with his position.

It doesn't matter to Clayton how someone comes to a conclusion (faking data, mistaking correlation for causation, or conducting rigorous research), what matters is what conclusion they came to. That's how he judges the validity of a conclusion.
 
jdc324 said:
The criterion for believing a parent is that what they say agrees with Clayton's position. The same criterion would likely be used for evidence if he could find any that agreed with his position.

It doesn't matter to Clayton how someone comes to a conclusion (faking data, mistaking correlation for causation, or conducting rigorous research), what matters is what conclusion they came to. That's how he judges the validity of a conclusion.
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My criteria for parenting doesn't include referring to them as "a kid."


"I have a kid with an Autism Spectrum disorder."
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so Clinton your proof MMR and vaccines casue autism is????
 
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Clayton Moore said:
My criteria for parenting doesn't include referring to them as "a kid."
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Lots of parents call their children kids. I have two kids, what have you got? Avoiding the issue yet again. Please present your evidence of a link between autism and vaccination. That should be no problem for one of the smartest people in the world.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My criteria for parenting doesn't include referring to them as "a kid."
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Clayton,
You've previously posted that you have raised children. You've never referred to them as your kids? My children are grown, but I often refer to them as my kids. My friends routinely refer to their children as their kids. My dad, when I was in my thirties, would call up and say, "Hey kid!"

I guess my point is that you must come from a very different cultural background or I am remembering your post on your children wrong. No other point.
 
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