Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
Sorry, I cannot see any posts in which you've addressed the carbon dating results by bringing up specific problems with the collection, storage or processing of the samples which would have affected all three laboratories. Perhaps you could give the post number(s) in which you do that?
- But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you -- cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
--- Jabba
Ignoring the first part (I rarely expect a substantive response anyway), imagine for a moment that I am prepared to agree for the sake of argument that there is blood, real human blood, on the shroud. Note that I'm not conceding the point, merely allowing it for the sake of argument and moving the conversation on a bit.

Assuming there is blood on the shroud, none of the reasons you have given for the presence of blood is in any way indicative of any particular date, 1st century or 14th century.

If you have an argument that blood must equal a 1st century (and only a 1st century) date, by all means post it but you will have to show that you can exclude a 14th century date. Be aware that there are people here who know a great deal about mediaeval European art and customs, possibly more than you do, and the assumptions you made before simply do not stack up to exclude a 14th century date.

Even if you do show that blood 'must' equal a first century date, you still have the problems that three independent laboratories dated the cloth of the shroud to around the 14th century, that the cloth is of a weave not known in the 1st century but was known in the 14th century, that the image resembles the mediaeval European concept of Jesus, not what he actually would have looked like, that the figure is anatomically impossible (to mention just a few).

The evidence that supports a 14th century date is overwhelming. The evidence in support of a 1st century date seems to consist of assumptions piled onto suppositions piled onto wishful thinking. If you have anything other than assumption, supposition and wishful thinking by all means do post it.
 
I'm watching a program on the History channel called "The Face of Jesus". They're using the shroud as the basis of their reconstruction of the face.:(
 
...I think I have located the source of the problem...

So far it's a rehash of invisible patch, the fall of Constantinople, too much handling to get a proper date, they even mentioned the Templars. Now they're into Resurrection Energy causing the image. Funny thing is all these things are contradictory.

Apparently history isn't what it used to be.
 
So far it's a rehash of invisible patch, the fall of Constantinople, too much handling to get a proper date, they even mentioned the Templars. Now they're into Resurrection Energy causing the image. Funny thing is all these things are contradictory.

And this is on the "History" channel. My. Dear. God.
 
So far it's a rehash of invisible patch, the fall of Constantinople, too much handling to get a proper date, they even mentioned the Templars. Now they're into Resurrection Energy causing the image. Funny thing is all these things are contradictory.

Apparently history isn't what it used to be.

Resurrection energy?


Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
- But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you -- cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
--- Jabba

I've read every one of your posts in this thread, and I don't see any where you resolve the carbon dating issue.

Nor do I. Still, it took under 100 pages to get Jabba to understand the 'invisible patch' idea was utter nonsense, so I feel progress has been made.

Filippo,
- I was finally able to reach that forum. Pierson5 seems to be referring to me -- but, I can't really remember who he is, and I'm not on that forum. But, thanks for letting me know about it...
--- Jabba

The search function is your friend, Jabba.
Pierson5 wrote three posts in this very thread, starting with

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread off and on for a little while. I was having a discussion with another individual who is quite familiar with the literature regarding the (pro)authenticity of the shroud. I was wondering what your guys' take was on his response to some of your criticisms. (I apologize if they have been addressed before).

While I agree the argument regarding blood isn't a convincing argument for authenticity, it does appear there is a publication which concludes there is blood on the shroud:


Dr. Adler then proceeded to apply microspectrophotometric analysis of a "blood particle" from one of the fibrils of the shroud and unmistakeably identified hemoglobin in the acid methemoglobin form due to great age and denaturation. Further tests by Heller and Adler established, within scientific certainty, the presence of porphyrin, bilirubin, albumin and protein. In fact, when proteases were applied to the fibril containing the "blood," the blood dissolved from the fibril leaving an imageless fibril. (Heller, J. H., Adler, A. D., Applied Optics, 19, 1980, pp 2742-4; Heller, J. H., and Adler, A. D., Canadian Forensic Society Sci, Journal 14, 1981, pp 81-103)


Regarding the C14 dating and invisible patch theory, there have been publications addressing the problem:

http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.pdf

I saw the post by Davefoc, and got this in response:

http://shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf
Specifically Entry 39 (regarding Mechthild) and 45



Regarding the work of Antonacci: http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/debate.pdf

I think to be fair to Jabba, there has been published evidence for the blood and for the patch hypothesis. It's not that the C14 results are wrong, but that the samples taken were not from the original cloth.

And finally, has there been any publication refuting Rogers' work published in 2005?

As you see, another 'invisible patch' fan.
 
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- Thanks, Pakeha. I had already forgotten about pierson.
--- Jabba

No worries, Jabba. I only discovered the 'Search this Thread' function about a month ago. Useful little beastie, it is, to be sure!
 
Carbon

- I tell you what:

1. At this point -- after actually thinking for this last year about your claims (you probably don’t believe that I actually did that) – I had become somewhat worried that my strong belief that the Shroud is authentic has been based upon a lot of separate books and articles, quoting (or MISQUOTING) the SAME, perhaps MINIMAL AND MISUNDERSTOOD (perhaps, even AMATEURISH) research…
2. This had become especially worrisome during our “real blood” discussion – though, I still do believe that the “bloodstains” are real.
3. So anyway, for a couple of weeks, I was trying to gather up the different bits of actual research responsible for my different claims.
4. One of the problems in doing so is that much of what I’m looking for is not on line…

5. Whatever, I have gathered up
a. Numerous TITLES of peer-reviewed (largely from members of STURP), and non-peer-reviewed, work apparently supporting the real blood hypothesis. Most of these require a visit to the State library, a half-hour away (that I’ve been putting off), in order to read, and/or copy the articles.
b. Numerous non-peer-reviewed papers supporting the real blood hypothesis.
c. McCrone’s book, and 2 of his papers, supporting the paint hypothesis.
d. Four peer-reviewed articles (by Rogers, Heller/Adler, Adler and Miller/Pellicori) supporting the real blood hypothesis.
6. Consequently, what I still need to do in regard to the real blood issue is spend time
a. Going-to, at and coming-from the library.
b. Determining how, and how well, the different tests identify blood.
c. Organize the info obtained.
d. Write up the info, my arguments and conclusions.
7. This will take awhile.

8. But then,
a. I’ve already spent a lot of time off on the TWA 800 project (some more, this past week), and off gathering this stuff re the Real Blood issue.
b. I am currently LESS WORRIED about my real blood beliefs than when I started trying to track down the evidence.
c. And, you guys are mostly
i. Not interested in the Real Blood issue, anyway. And,
ii. Urging me to get on with the “direct evidence” against the carbon dating.

9. Consequently, I can either continue on with my real blood/ indirect evidence research and presentation, or I can go back to gathering and presenting the direct evidence and arguments against the carbon dating process of the Shroud.
10. I’m not sure that you would really want me to shift over to the direct evidence thing right now, cause you’d also like to see me finally finish something.
11. If I do shift over to the direct evidence thing, I won’t just drop the real blood study, I’ll try to narrow that study to the claim of serum clot retraction rings around the wounds depicted on the Shroud.

12. I’ve already tried to present direct evidence against the carbon dating process. In case you missed it, the following was taken from post #896.

2. The scientific processes surrounding the carbon dating were not especially rigorous.
2.1. The protocols to which the involved laboratories agreed were abandoned by the church officials.
2.1.1. The number of labs involved was reduced from 7 to 3 – one of the labs being eliminated was that of Harry Gove.
2.1.2. The 7 individual samples stipulated were reduced to 3.
2.1.3. The individual samples were supposed to be taken from different areas on the cloth, instead they were taken from one small corner (less than 3 inches by less than ½ inch -- .03% of the entire shroud).
2.1.4. Only one dating process was used rather than the two stipulated by the scientists.
2.1.5. The two persons involved in the actual cutting of the sample did not include an independent textile expert (madame flury-lemberg was supposed to do the cutting).
2.1.6. No lab reps were permitted to observe the entire cutting and sorting procedures.
2.1.7. The overall sample included only 7 square centimeters rather than the stipulated 12½.
2.1.8. No real control samples could be provided to the labs – the unique weave of the shroud precluded the necessary “blindness.”

3. Rogers found 3 major differences between the carbon dating (and raes) samples and the rest of the cloth.
4. In 2005, john l. Brown of the georgia institute of technology confirmed rogers’ findings.
5. In 2008, a group from the los alamos national laboratories also confirmed rogers’ findings.
8. Carbon dating is not foolproof, and is only part of the evidence.


13. Until I hear otherwise, I’ll be looking up, and citing, all my previous posts concerning that “direct evidence,” and then seeing what else I can find.

--- Jabba
 
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Consequently, I can either continue on with my real blood/ indirect evidence research and presentation, or I can go back to gathering and presenting the direct evidence and arguments against the carbon dating process of the Shroud.
This is rather amusing.

Yes, Jabba, just please focus on the carbon 14 dating. If I remember correctly, the blood has essentially been assumed to be accurate for the purposes of advancing the thread and the real issue of the carbon 14 dating. It's been stipulated, so just focus only on the carbon 14 dating.

I do feel comfortable speaking for others in this thread about this issue (only) and for the lurkers as well.
 
Originally Posted by Jabba
Consequently, I can either continue on with my real blood/ indirect evidence research and presentation, or I can go back to gathering and presenting the direct evidence and arguments against the carbon dating process of the Shroud.

Your so-called research into the verity of the purported blood on the shroud is a gosh-darned waste of time unless you can prove there was only one person who ever had blood in his veins, and that one person was Jesus H Christ with an autographed menu from the last supper. Let it go!

OK, that dinner menu part was me being facetious, but still.

Spend your time debunking the 14C dating if you can. You have spent so much time avoiding it that you have made yourself a laughing stock.

Avoid all other issues until you can debunk the radiocarbon dating.
 
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<snip>
12. I’ve already tried to present direct evidence against the carbon dating process. In case you missed it, the following was taken from post #896.

2. The scientific processes surrounding the carbon dating were not especially rigorous.
2.1. The protocols to which the involved laboratories agreed were abandoned by the church officials.
2.1.1. The number of labs involved was reduced from 7 to 3 – one of the labs being eliminated was that of Harry Gove.
2.1.2. The 7 individual samples stipulated were reduced to 3.
2.1.3. The individual samples were supposed to be taken from different areas on the cloth, instead they were taken from one small corner (less than 3 inches by less than ½ inch -- .03% of the entire shroud).
2.1.4. Only one dating process was used rather than the two stipulated by the scientists.
2.1.5. The two persons involved in the actual cutting of the sample did not include an independent textile expert (madame flury-lemberg was supposed to do the cutting).
2.1.6. No lab reps were permitted to observe the entire cutting and sorting procedures.
2.1.7. The overall sample included only 7 square centimeters rather than the stipulated 12½.
2.1.8. No real control samples could be provided to the labs – the unique weave of the shroud precluded the necessary “blindness.”

3. Rogers found 3 major differences between the carbon dating (and raes) samples and the rest of the cloth.
4. In 2005, john l. Brown of the georgia institute of technology confirmed rogers’ findings.
5. In 2008, a group from the los alamos national laboratories also confirmed rogers’ findings.
8. Carbon dating is not foolproof, and is only part of the evidence.


13. Until I hear otherwise, I’ll be looking up, and citing, all my previous posts concerning that “direct evidence,” and then seeing what else I can find.

--- Jabba

In case you missed it, each and every one of these has been addressed in posts #897ff.

This one is particularly apt...

Quick summary:

Everything that is rigorous and scientific (and thus points to an obvious fraud) you disbelieve, while some tiny unfalsifiable things, possessing no scientific merit or demonstrable rigour, and are completely reliant on hearsay (but you think point to the shroud being genuine) you believe.

I hope it's clear to everyone, if wasn't before, that you're mind is closed and this "conversation" is an exercise in futility.
 
Jabba,

Yes, please return to documented, factual discussion of the 14C evidence. To help you focus, Slowvehicle just reminded you of why your prior arguments don't work. Start with presenting fresh material, or explain with facts why these objections are wrong. Thanks.

By the way- you claim you've been studying the Shroud for decades, and you haven't bothered to make a 30 min trip to the library to read the original studies?
 
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