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deaman said:
Let me try to explain my hackles.

It was inferred by Janadele, that I am a lesser person, spiritually, becuase I do not accept the mormons doctrines. Inherent in that statement is that fact that she (or members of the church) are somehow better, more fortunate to have gained god's approval.

Members of the church are "saints". People, not in the church, or of darker skin color are what? Less than?

It is not true!
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deaman said:
It is, perhaps, a fault of my own, that I could not, in good conscience, walk around all day saying, I am a saint. Not to mention the absence of humility, for someone, who thinks they are better than others based on a belief in an imaginary being.

Sorry.

So, back to our regularly scheduled program.
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I think that is just your perception. But hey, we can disagree. Let's move on. I'll leave it that.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Announces 2013 Edition of LDS Scriptures: http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

The 2013 edition of the Pearl of Great Price, released yesterday, features introductory updates.

Those relating to The Book of Abraham affirm the divine origin:

“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/scripture-comparison_eng.pdf

displays a side by side comparison of the previous and the 2013 editions, and "highlights adjustments that have been made to the introductory material of the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, implementing new historical findings from the Joseph Smith Papers project."
 
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deaman said:
I hit a nerve with a few, and that is interesting.
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I realize this particular side-topic has died down, and Empress and RandFan expressed my view on it: there's more than one definition of the word.

So I'll just add...

I expect that most Mormons, including Cat Tale, would say without hestation, as she did, "I'm a Latter-Day Saint."

I expect that almost no Mormons would say, "I'm a saint," no more than the population at large, because like anyone else, they'd think it would sound egotistical and embarrassing, and they wouldn't believe they're all that good.

If you can wrap your head around that, I think it's good evidence, even beyond the dictionary definitions, that the word really does have more than one meaning in common usage.
 
Janadele said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Announces 2013 Edition of LDS Scriptures: http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

The 2013 edition of the Pearl of Great Price, released yesterday, features introductory updates.

Those relating to The Book of Abraham affirm the divine origin:

“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/c ... on_eng.pdf

displays a side by side comparison of the previous and the 2013 editions.
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The second link, to the side-by-side comparison, appears to be broken...might you correct it?

Also, do you have this information from anything other than a pro-molrmon propaganda site?

ETA: here's the working link: http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/scripture-comparison_eng.pdf

ETAA: The PDF only contains a side-by-side comparison of the introductory materials. No more than a reaffirmation of a previous, unsupported assertion.
 
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Nay_Sayer said:
For the best, As stated its just a Pro Mormon Propaganda site.
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Understood, but, unlike Janedele I don't dismiss sources out of hand. I'm more than willing to consider her arguments and data. I've no sacred cows that I need to protect by closing my eyes.
 
tsig said:
We're not ancient peoples.

I'd think you'd be the one to teach morals to your son, not a TV show.
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I'd intended to include a reference to modern religious people as sharing the same mental capacity for cognitive dissonance, but I was typing the post on my phone and had to get my son to school. :boggled:

My favorite example of this kind of dualistic thinking is the ability of many people to be simultaneously Young Earth Creationists (YEC) while accepting the evidence for Evolution and the age of the Earth. While they almost never refer to it as such, the YEC takes place in a mythological context, which is theologically true for them, but not necessarily literally true.

If a religion is to survive in the information age, it needs to do one of two things.

1. Accept religious texts as instructive mythology, not necessarily "true" in the historical sense, but still divinely inspired.

2. Reality denial, attributing all conflicting evidence to a conspiracy of some kind.

We're seeing both approaches represented by the two active Mormons in this thread. I think we can see which approach allows the faithful to engage with non-believers in a friendly, constructive manner, and which approach requires blind, unthinking, and frankly embarrassing, reality denial.

Janadele said:
“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”
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And thanks to Janadele's tireless Googling, we can see that the LDS is taking the reality denial approach.
 
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halleyscomet said:
If a religion is to survive in the information age, it needs to do one of two things.

1. Accept religious texts as instructive mythology, not necessarily "true" in the historical sense, but still divinely inspired.

2. Reality denial, attributing all conflicting evidence to a conspiracy of some kind.

We're seeing both approaches represented by the two active Mormons in this thread. I think we can see which approach allows the faithful to engage with non-believers in a friendly, constructive manner, and which approach requires blind, unthinking, and frankly embarrassing, reality denial.

And thanks to Janadele's tireless Googling, we can see that the LDS is taking the reality denial approach.
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In an open and free democracy, reason has a way of overcoming superstition, mythology and false modes of thinking. It can take awhile but in the light of day the nonsense withers up in a generation or two. The apologetics are only good for a percentage of those who already believe. Reason and attrition will weed out the BofA just as it did geocentrism.
 
RandFan said:
Understood, but, unlike Janedele I don't dismiss sources out of hand. I'm more than willing to consider her arguments and data. I've no sacred cows that I need to protect by closing my eyes.
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You are correct, I was being facetious and illustrating the silly and rather foolish nature of labeling anything one disagrees with to be propaganda.
 
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Janadele said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Announces 2013 Edition of LDS Scriptures: http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

The 2013 edition of the Pearl of Great Price, released yesterday, features introductory updates.

Those relating to The Book of Abraham affirm the divine origin:

“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/scripture-comparison_eng.pdf

displays a side by side comparison of the previous and the 2013 editions, and "highlights adjustments that have been made to the introductory material of the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, implementing new historical findings from the Joseph Smith Papers project."
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Those are biased pro-Mormon links, and thus unacceptable.
 
Janadele said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Announces 2013 Edition of LDS Scriptures: http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

The 2013 edition of the Pearl of Great Price, released yesterday, features introductory updates.

Those relating to The Book of Abraham affirm the divine origin:

“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/scripture-comparison_eng.pdf

displays a side by side comparison of the previous and the 2013 editions, and "highlights adjustments that have been made to the introductory material of the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, implementing new historical findings from the Joseph Smith Papers project."
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They found the lost papyri?
 
RandFan said:
Understood, but, unlike Janedele I don't dismiss sources out of hand. I'm more than willing to consider her arguments and data. I've no sacred cows that I need to protect by closing my eyes.
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That is what I am talking about, right here.

A man of honor and patience, which is what one would expect from a saint. Yet, he is not calling himself a latter day saint.

Hope I am not stepping over a line, or on toes, RandFan.
 
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24242219&ni...ripture-edition&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-2

"SALT LAKE CITY — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced the release of a new edition of its English-language scriptures.
The new edition has been released in digital formats and will be available in printed formats in August. The updates include revisions to study aids, new photos, updated maps and adjustments to chapter and section headings."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865574523/LDS-Church-announces-new-scripture-edition.html
"SALT LAKE CITY — Studying and understanding the scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be a little easier now that church officials have completed an eight-year project focused on updating and adjusting the footnotes, chapter headings and study aids associated with the scriptures... The revisions were released late Thursday and have been integrated with the LDS versions of the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price that can be accessed through lds.org. Church officials said updates will be sent to those who have already downloaded online and mobile versions of the LDS scriptures."
 
Cat Tale said:
Actually, my opinion on both of these has already been posted.
On the BoA
4449

On the BoM
2428

Despite some inaccuracies, I still firmly believe both the BoA and the BoM, and that they are both the word of God. Based on faith, not evidence.
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Here's the quote from your first link:


Quote:
You're very right, Smith's translation does not match that of Egyptologists. We believe the translation itself was an inspired act, and what Smith wrote is true, Truth actually, on a deeply spiritual level. More importantly, it was exactly what was needed at the time to establish God's Kingdom here on Earth. We believe the lessons contained in the BoA are just as relevant today, and thus - regardless of historical origin - hold it in the highest theological regard.
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Which does seem to say that you know that what Joe wrote has nothing to do with the hieroglyphs but that establishing the church was more important than the actual facts.

Note the hilited, Joe didn't write what was true but Truth and Truth doesn't have to be connected to reality in any way.

Known con artists are the best source for this Truth.
 
Janadele said:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24242219&ni...ripture-edition&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-2

"SALT LAKE CITY — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced the release of a new edition of its English-language scriptures.
The new edition has been released in digital formats and will be available in printed formats in August. The updates include revisions to study aids, new photos, updated maps and adjustments to chapter and section headings."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865574523/LDS-Church-announces-new-scripture-edition.html
"SALT LAKE CITY — Studying and understanding the scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be a little easier now that church officials have completed an eight-year project focused on updating and adjusting the footnotes, chapter headings and study aids associated with the scriptures... The revisions were released late Thursday and have been integrated with the LDS versions of the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price that can be accessed through lds.org. Church officials said updates will be sent to those who have already downloaded online and mobile versions of the LDS scriptures."
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I do all my Studying and understanding the scriptures thru the stone-in-hat method. If it was good enough for the Prophet (Peace be in his hat) it's good enough for me.
 
Janadele said:
“An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri...”
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An inspired translation is not where you use an understanding of another language and the context of the subject writing to render an understanding as close as possible to what the author intended to convey. It's where you give the intuitions free rein on the assumption that you are being guided by divine power. On the one hand we have translations by Egyptologists in which meanings of hieroglyphs can be consistently applied across other writings for coherent understandings. While on the other Joseph Smith's inspired translation has no such consistency and contradicts best understandings of ancient culture and language. It is indistinguishable from someone letting their imagination leap from a naïve understanding of the ancient world into an interpretation of the text that conveniently supports his new religion.
 
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