Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Dcdrac]

So Mr Mooore you have evidence that contradicts what the AMA article says, evidence from clinical Scieentific sources? credible ones and not Andrew stuck off, quack Wakefield?

 

[r-j]

Clayton,
You might wish to read the actual Wakefield paper before you answer that question. Just a suggestion.
http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-paper.htm

Thanks for the link.

Clayton,

Did you get a chance to read Wakefiels's paper? Check out the first paragraph of the discussion, for example. Is it a lie that he tried to link MMR vaccination to bowel inflammation and autism? Was the Wikipedia article lying about that as you claimed, or were you wrong?

Why not just quote what they wrote in the paper?

In eight children, the onset of behavioural problems had been linked, either by the parents or by the child's physician, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination. Five had had an early adverse reaction to immunisation (rash, fever, delirium; and, in three cases, convulsions). In these eight children the average interval from exposure to first behavioural symptoms was 6·3 days (range 1-14). Parents were less clear about the timing of onset of abdominal symptoms because children were not toilet trained at the time or because behavioural features made children unable to communicate symptoms.

So Mr Moore you have evidence that contradicts what the AMA article says,

Is what the paper actually says considered evidence?

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore, do you know anyting about Andrew Wakefield

No explanation for the blatantly obvious and purposeful Wiki lie that Wakefield claimed that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and the appearance of autism and bowel disease?

Clayton Moore, Are you are really ignorant of the fact that this Wiki artucle has the blatantly obvious and purposeful Wiki truth that Wakefield claimed that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and the appearance of autism and bowel disease ?

N.B. This was (and seems to remain) his own personal opinion not backed up by any credibale scientific data. The 1998 retracted and invalid paper just suggests a link that was later retracted by most of the authors

MMR vaccine controversy

The paper suggested that the connection between autism and the gastrointestinal pathologies was real, but said it did not prove an association between the MMR vaccine and autism.[1]
...
In March 2004, immediately following the news of the conflict of interest allegations, ten of Wakefield's 12 coauthors retracted this interpretation,[67] while insisting that the possibility of a distinctive gastrointestinal condition in children with autism merited further investigation.[40] However, a separate study of children with gastrointestinal disturbances found no difference between those with ASD and those without, with respect to the presence of measles virus RNA in the bowel; it also found that gastrointestinal symptoms and the onset of autism were unrelated in time to the administration of MMR vaccine.[68]

(my emphais added)

 

[Stamuel]

No explanation for the blatantly obvious and purposeful Wiki lie that Wakefield claimed that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and the appearance of autism and bowel disease?

Let me get this straight. To support the claim that vaccines cause autism, you are defending a person whose research you claim has nothing to do with any supposed connection between vaccines and autism?

Not only that, but part of your defense of him is that he never claimed such a link?

Clayton Moore: Trolling has never been so obvious.

 

[Reality Check]

Timing of development of autism
Insanity.

And now scientific studies are insane!
The relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism

Autism symptoms are present before one year of age
Perhaps the best data examining when symptoms of autism are first evident are the "home-movie studies". These studies took advantage of the fact that many parents take movies of their children during their first birthday (before they have received the MMR vaccine). Home movies from children who were eventually diagnosed with autism and those who were not diagnosed with autism were shown to blinded eurodevelopmental specialists. Investigators were, with a very high degree of accuracy, able to separate autistic from non-autistic children at one year of age.
These studies found that subtle symptoms of autism are present earlier than some parents had suspected, and that receipt of the MMR vaccine did not precede the first symptoms of autism.Adrien, J., et al. Blind ratings of early symptoms of autism based upon family home movies. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 32:617-626, 1993.
Adrien, J., et al. Early symptoms in autism from family home movies: evaluation and comparison between 1st and 2nd year of life using I.B.S.E. scale. Acta Paedopsychiatrica 55:71-75, 1992.
Adrien, J., et al. Autism and family home movies: preliminary findings. J Autism Devel Disorders 21:43-49, 1991.
Osterling, J., et al. Early recognition of children with autism: a study of first birthday home videotapes. J Autism Devel Disorders 24:247-257, 1994.
Mars, A.E., et al. Symptoms of pervasive developmental disorders as observed in prediagnostic home videos of infants and toddlers. J Pediatr 132:500-504, 1998.

 

[Matthew Cline]

Let me get this straight. To support the claim that vaccines cause autism, you are defending a person whose research you claim has nothing to do with any supposed connection between vaccines and autism?

Not only that, but part of your defense of him is that he never claimed such a link?

Clayton Moore: Trolling has never been so obvious.

I've seen other anti-vaxxers make the a similar claim, so I don't think that it's necessarily trolling to say so. The similar claim is that Lancet paper merely made the suggestion that there might be a connection, and that it called for further research (this, of course, ignores what he said at press conferences, and that he was to be an expert witness at a vaccine trial). Moore might just be messing up that particular talking point.

 

[Giordano]

Let me get this straight. To support the claim that vaccines cause autism, you are defending a person whose research you claim has nothing to do with any supposed connection between vaccines and autism?

Not only that, but part of your defense of him is that he never claimed such a link?

You know, I like this idea. So Clayton, doesn't that leave you without any evidence that vaccines cause autism? Not even a retracted paper?

 

[abaddon]

Let me get this straight. To support the claim that vaccines cause autism, you are defending a person whose research you claim has nothing to do with any supposed connection between vaccines and autism?

Not only that, but part of your defense of him is that he never claimed such a link?

Clayton Moore: Trolling has never been so obvious.

You have it a little wrong. The whole autism dealy is simply a blind alley, It's just a means to a rhetorical end.

CM has made it clear that he believes ALL vaccines are evil. Single dose, MMR, flu, it matters not. As far as CM is concerned, they are all evil. Every single one.

 

[Giordano]

Has Clayton ever responded to the repeated requests that he tell us what he considers a safe vaccination schedule?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Has Clayton ever responded to the repeated requests that he tell us what he considers a safe vaccination schedule?

Any organization that even came close to giving a flying crap about the welfare of infants would have stopped the MMR jabs immediately when questions were raised and replaced them with single vaccine jabs 3 to 6 months apart.

 

[zooterkin]

Any organization that even came close to giving a flying crap about the welfare of infants would have stopped the MMR jabs immediately when questions were raised and replaced them with single vaccine jabs 3 to 6 months apart.

Why, exactly? Something other than an argument from incredulity, preferably.

 

[abaddon]

Any organization that even came close to giving a flying crap about the welfare of infants would have stopped the MMR jabs immediately when questions were raised and replaced them with single vaccine jabs 3 to 6 months apart.

Using that range, it would take 4 to 8 years to complete the immunisation of children, during which time many children would die from diseases for which they have not yet received vaccines. Nice plan, Clayton. Kill the kids, problem solved.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Using that range, it would take 4 to 8 years to complete the immunisation of children, during which time many children would die from diseases for which they have not yet received vaccines. Nice plan, Clayton. Kill the kids, problem solved.

Sounds like 9 to 18 months longer to me.

 

[abaddon]

Sounds like 9 to 18 months longer to me.

9 vaccines x 3 to 6 month gap. Can you add?

 

[Clayton Moore]

9 vaccines x 3 to 6 month gap. Can you add?

MMR is three vaccines.

 

[Alareth]

9 vaccines x 3 to 6 month gap. Can you add?

Empirical data says no ...

 

[abaddon]

MMR is three vaccines.

What about the others?

Or did you forget posting this:

Yet WE are so dam presumptive that we inject multiple adjuvants with up to 9 vaccines into infants without blinking an eye.


adjuvant - definition of adjuvant by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/adjuvant
Novartis also initiated deliveries against the 90 million doses of proprietary adjuvant, which could be used to double the amount of vaccine doses produced.
That sounds like a windfall.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What about the others?

Or did you forget posting this:

The last 10 or so posts discussed MMR.

 

[Dcdrac]

and MMR has no connection whatsoever with autism, based on current clinical and genuine research evidence alone.

 

[Clayton Moore]

and MMR has no connection whatsoever with autism, based on current clinical and genuine research evidence alone.

That's zombie BS. I'll believe parent testimonies thank you very much.