Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Locard only says that every contact leaves a trace - he doesn't say anything about how detectable or durable such a trace might be.
 
The washing machine was humid that morning. I don't remember anything about a dryer. I have never read a definitive report on the status of the heater. If the heater wasn't turned on the status of her jacket means nothing as on a 50 degree F night without heat keeping a jacket on would be natural.

If Locard only says something is left but it might not be detectable that isn't of much value. All of these rules of thumb are tossed aside when convenient. While the PIP say Rudi must have been able to smash a window and hoist himself up while wearing his burglar gloves the PGP come up with fancy scenarios for how the kids wouldn't leave anything behind in the murder room. And we all can fall back on ILE incompetence.

I'm sure Locard didn't say "except when the burglar wears gloves".

The ILE always said they didn't look for AK's prints or DNA where it was meaningless, as in her room or on her guitar. The PGP, at first, made a big deal about the lack of prints. For them it proved the clean-up. I'm not convinced they didn't find F's DNA in her room. It could be be as above. They either didn't look there except the Luminol spots or they didn't report finding F's DNA in her own room.
 
Grinder said:
If Locard only says something is left but it might not be detectable that isn't of much value. All of these rules of thumb are tossed aside when convenient. While the PIP say Rudi must have been able to smash a window and hoist himself up while wearing his burglar gloves the PGP come up with fancy scenarios for how the kids wouldn't leave anything behind in the murder room. And we all can fall back on ILE incompetence.

I'm sure Locard didn't say "except when the burglar wears gloves".
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As I said above, Locard is principally concerned with 'trace evidence' as in hair, dirt, blood, fibers, and other substances. Walking through a room is not equivalent to having a life and death struggle with another human being and it rather perverse to keep going on as if it does. So, while it is not so surprising that no trace evidence of Guede was left in Filomena's room (as far as we know and forgetting about the piece of glass tracked from there to the other bedroom) it is very decidedly surprising, bordering on miraculous, that no trace at all of A & R survived their participation in this bloody and violent murder, the traces including injuries to them (as Guede had) or fibres* on their clothes or fibres* from their clothes on the victim or elsewhere in the room or hair or saliva or blood or other tissue or finger prints or foot prints. I mean, how did they manage that exactly?

Grinder, I require an express admission please that the two situations are not equivalent. Otherwise, I am not going to be able to take you seriously anymore. This will count as a disagreement for Coulsdon's benefit.

* Where is the fibre analysis in this case? - Oh, I forgot the cops just chucked all the clothes in a heap and forgot about them for 6 weeks.
 
RandyN said:
I see The Machine who is not a member here as far as I know is spouting off a litany of lies... oddly about someone else lying over at Pervert Quinells place. What a pity he will not join here...I would love to answer his each and every point. I would answer him in his own houses but they wont welcome me at any of those...

Sorry Coulson....it may seem like a back slapping club, but to be honest, no PGP is willing to lay out their case that proves guilt on any site that also allows a dissenting opinion. I wish The Machine, or PQ, or Kermit or Miss Piggy and the Skeptical Owl would come here and argue their points. But they wont. And there is a reason they wont. And I think you are well aware of that reason and yet remain a small voice of dissent and cling to and offer a small sample of their sides non points. I admire that you do that. I think it is a forgone conclusion that the facts of this case prove BARD that Rudy Guede alone murdered, raped and robbed Miss Kercher. And I also contend that the facts also show that AK and RS played no part what so ever nor do they bear any responsibility for Miss Kerchers untimely death.

I think this case showed the world what a "dirty" little city Perugia Italy actually is, and it is just one example of many others where ILE and the IJS failed miserably. There is also the Narducci matter and the Scazzi case and a long list of ridiculous cases including charges against scientists for failing to predict earthquakes...nuff said.
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CouldsonUK - this may be a backslapping club here, but I've been slapped on the back so hard some times by RandyN, Grinder, and Anglo that I wonder if they think I'm on their side, or they're just subtly trying to push me out into traffic....

Point is, you're one of the few remaining skeptics of the kids innocence here. Ms. Ganong has said on her site that JREF has been taken over by the FOA-groupies.... a strange way of putting it since she herself can post here, but none of us can post there.... I'm sure you can figure out what I mean by this.

A strange character named The Machine promises to blow Bruce Fisher out of the water with a post to be made in Feb 2013, that blows the lid off the role Bruce Fisher played in perverting the course of justice.... yet the challenge to anyone is to go through The Machine's list of lies that he claims Fisher is all about, and find one piece of info that does not originate from before the Dec 2009 conviction and assumes that nothing has happened since.

And as AngloLawyer has pointed out - one of the things The Machine prints himself about Anna Donino's testimony about the SMS text message, is that the cops had Lumumba's incoming text to show to Knox, but that this incoming text somehow disappeared - when that cellphone was never again in Ms. Knox's possession.

I could go on - and have. I trust that you've been paying attention enough that you can distinguish between us here on the FOA side of things - you perhaps can now write our posts for us. My two hobby horses these days are:

- the five facts as found by Massei which directly contradict the prosecution, as well as the remaining guilters
- the problems inherent in the Italian SC referring any of the acquittals back to trial; no prosecutor in his/her right mind would want to reprosecute this mess​

All this when the remaining guilters cannot provide a timeline of the crime that includes Massei's five points as I've outlined, not to mention Rudy Guede's own description of the timeline when things went down.

One final hobby horse of mine is the Kerchers - who really perhaps did find much needed closure with the Dec 2009 conviction of the two students. I know I would have. Yet the horrible re-opening of that closure in Oct 2011 is patently not Knox or Sollecito's fault.

It belongs to a prosecutor who simply will not admit to doing ANY wrong. The prosecutor still fudges the meaning of the Italian SC ruling that the two interrogations cannot be used in the murder trials against Knox and Sollecito, because those interrogations were conducted illegally.

And, true, anything FOA people then say about those interrogations is perhaps suspect. None of us were there, and even fewer of use are versatile in Italian law. But when Mr. Mignini by his own admission quotes the relevant law to the cops Ficarra, et al., then proceeds himself to break that very law - for me I then find it easier to believe that Knox and Sollecito were threatened at interrogation - Sollecito threatened with a beating that would leave him in a pool of blood on the floor, and Knox slapped on the back of the head, deprived of sleep, and most definitely NOT plied with cookies and camomile tea as John Follain regurgitates from the story the cops told about the interrogations.

It's not as if you and I can check the video to answer a disagreement you and I might have about the probability of those things happening?

But, Anglo has all but proved that the cops erased evidence - in Italy that's called perverting the course of justice. And I believe it is also part of the road map (and timeline provided, which guilters will NOT provide about the murder itself) of how the Perugian LE folk trump up charges against two innocents. It makes it easier for me to believe the cops simply lied about the text message, the camomile tea, as well as everything, really, to do with the interrogation. Heck, Donnino by her own admission said she walked into Knox's interrogation room at 12:30 am to find it in so much disarray, that Donnino proceeded to act as a mediator, not a translator.

And read between THOSE lines.... up until 12:30 there'd been no translator - everything is in disarray. Gee (scratching chin) I wonder why. Connect the dots.

If it were not so painful to contemplate that the Kerchers would have to endure 5 more years of horror, and that two students and their families five more years of uncertainty and needless on-line vilification - I'd actually be rooting FOR the SC to return this thing to the appeals' level.

As they said about the Pistorius case in South Africa, the trouble with Mr. Pistorius taking a plea bargain is that the rest of us will never know the truth - because there'll be no trial. All there will be is on-line bickering between sides.
 
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Charges dropped against the Sollecitos

This just in - the charges related to the unauthorized (and disgusting) release of the crime-scene video have come in. The charges against the Sollecitos have been dropped.


Charges in Italy remain for Enzo Magistà, director of Telenorba, and the journalist Antonio Procacci.

Italy, it seems, is figuring this thing out. Can anyone name any criminal proceeding since Oct 2011 which has not got it right? The others have been delayed.... March 25 remains.
 
Bill Williams said:
This just in - the charges related to the unauthorized (and disgusting) release of the crime-scene video have come in. The charges against the Sollecitos have been dropped.


Charges in Italy remain for Enzo Magistà, director of Telenorba, and the journalist Antonio Procacci.

Italy, it seems, is figuring this thing out. Can anyone name any criminal proceeding since Oct 2011 which has not got it right? The others have been delayed.... March 25 remains.
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I can. The case against Mignini for his adventures in the MOF farce.
 
anglolawyer said:
I can. The case against Mignini for his adventures in the MOF farce.
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You have to concede, though, that if the case needed to have been thrown out because of wrong jurisdiction then it had to have been thrown out. I'd rather have 100 guilty buggers set free than 1 innocent convicted. If that's the law, then that's the law... when they get Mignini, it needs to be done by due process......
 
Bill Williams said:
You have to concede, though, that if the case needed to have been thrown out because of wrong jurisdiction then it had to have been thrown out. I'd rather have 100 guilty buggers set free than 1 innocent convicted. If that's the law, then that's the law... when they get Mignini, it needs to be done by due process......
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I agree. And I'd also add that if the charges against Mignini regarding the MOF case were trumped up by biased Florentine prosecutors, then I would hope that the Turin prosecutors will correct that. I really don't know (and have no real interest in knowing) about the details of Mignini's involvement in the MOF case, and therefore have no idea whether the charges against him have real substance. If they do have substance, then I hope he is properly answerable under the law.

My view of Mignini regarding the Kercher case is that his main faults were hubris, arrogance and incompetence. I don't think he acted willfully maliciously towards Knox or Sollecito: I think he genuinely thought he had the right suspects (based on an improper and incompetent rush to judgement, followed by repeated confirmation bias and tunnel vision), and once he stated his case he was unwilling and unable to change or admit mistakes.

Therefore, I think Mignini should definitely face an internal or external inquiry over his handling of the Kercher case, together with the likes of Napoleoni and Stefanoni. His handling of the case was clearly badly flawed, and was riddled with incompetence and malpractice. I don't think that criminal charges are warranted though, unless some new evidence is revealed pointing to criminal conduct.
 
Bill Williams said:
This just in - the charges related to the unauthorized (and disgusting) release of the crime-scene video have come in. The charges against the Sollecitos have been dropped.


Charges in Italy remain for Enzo Magistà, director of Telenorba, and the journalist Antonio Procacci.

Italy, it seems, is figuring this thing out. Can anyone name any criminal proceeding since Oct 2011 which has not got it right? The others have been delayed.... March 25 remains.
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Good. It's the right decision. I suspect that the case against the Telenorba executives will fizzle out as well, since there was (and is) a clear public interest issue at play here. Does every TV channel that shows the Zapruder film of the JFK headshot face criminal charges...?

In my opinion, the entirety of the problem with the Kercher case and the misguided prosecutions of Knox and Sollecito was as a result of the too-cosy nature of relationships within the Perugia law enforcement community. As I see it, Micheli and Massei were very obviously too close to Mignini, and as a result were all too prepared to accept his version of events as the de facto truth. It's always appeared to me that both Micheli and Massei felt it was the defence's job to DISPROVE Mignini's theories of guilt - an utterly improper way to administer justice. I also strongly suspect that this was partly because of the hangover from the inquisitorial system, where the prosecutor was (in theory) setting out "the impartial truth" as (s)he could best ascertain it.

So I think that the cosy, somewhat unreformed Perugia system, up to and including Massei, should shoulder a very large part of the blame for the improper way in which Knox and Sollecito were prosecuted and initially found guilty. Fortunately Hellmann/Zanetti could take a proper, detached view of the case, and they came to the correct rulings by and large. I don't foresee that the SC will do anything other than administer the law correctly either.
 
halides1 said:
LondonJohn,

We might also add bloody shoe prints to your list. These cannot be tied to any one individual, but they do narrow the field down considerably. I seem to recall that the defense argued that one or more shoe print suggested the presence of a shard of glass, but I cannot find a reference at this time.
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Yes, very true. And let's not forget the partial foot print in blood/water on the bathmat. It can be demonstrated that all these things are consistent with Guede, although they cannot be positively proven to be made by him. However (and as other have said), once it's been established that a) Guede was definitely guilty of the murder, b) there's no credible evidence that anyone else was involved in the murder, and c) all the evidence is compatible with just one attacker (Guede), then it's reasonable to infer that the show prints and partial footprint were indeed made by Guede.
 
Stoked for Raf and his Family!!!

Bill Williams said:
This just in - the charges related to the unauthorized (and disgusting) release of the crime-scene video have come in. The charges against the Sollecitos have been dropped.

Click to expand...

YEEE-AAA!!!

Hey Bill Williams,
It's still winter here in Southern California,
but it is an incredible day here in Los Angeles,
the weather is soooo warm that I am sitting here wearing board shorts, (err that means I'm wearin' surf trunks for you that don't know the term), and no t-shirt, much less a winter jacket(!) and yes, YOUR post just made my day!!!

Thanks man!
:D
YEA!!!
RW
 
LondonJohn said:
In my opinion, the entirety of the problem with the Kercher case and the misguided prosecutions of Knox and Sollecito was as a result of the too-cosy nature of relationships within the Perugia law enforcement community. As I see it, Micheli and Massei were very obviously too close to Mignini, and as a result were all too prepared to accept his version of events as the de facto truth. It's always appeared to me that both Micheli and Massei felt it was the defence's job to DISPROVE Mignini's theories of guilt - an utterly improper way to administer justice. I also strongly suspect that this was partly because of the hangover from the inquisitorial system, where the prosecutor was (in theory) setting out "the impartial truth" as (s)he could best ascertain it.
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LJ - it makes it all the more astonishing, then, that Massei ruled the way he did on the facts of the case. I keep listing the five departures from Mignini's case that Massei makes in his motivations report, even as he still convicts the two students.

- no motive (the motive for the killing is Guede's)
- no mixed blood
- no bad relationship between Knox and Kercher (why, then, did Mignini bother to call the British girls and Filomena to the stand?)
- no forensic presence of Knox in the murder room
- no psychopathology for either Knox or Sollecito, before during or after the crime​

If what you say is true about the cozy relationship, then it makes it all the more astonishing that Massei would reject key elements of the PM's case. True?
 
I'd say that again, it feeds back into the huge problem that courts in Italy used to have wide investigatory powers (and, in theory, they still do). Indeed, the PM is still actually a magistrate - a member of the judiciary - rather than a wholly-independent and autonomous prosecuting authority.

And that's why Massei slid back into the old investigative model to graft his own theories onto those of Mignini - the theory being that between Mignini and his court, the "impartial truth" would be established. In this model, the defence are little more than flies in the ointment: annoying shouters from the sidelines who are merely trying to help their client, and who are the only partisan actors in the play.

What should have happened, of course, was that the prosecutors should have been correctly recognised as partisan; that having been established, the role of the court should have been firstly to clarify the case and ensure that all avenues had been properly explored, and then to act as the triers of fact by weighing up all the arguments and deciding whether the court (under the direction of prosecutors) had found guilt proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This system of justice seems somewhat alien to the likes of Micheli and Massei - they prefer to live in the old, comfortable, familiar, inquisitorial way of doing things. The one where lots more mistakes and injustices take place, and the one which Italy thankfully abandoned some years ago.
 
I thought the PGP had inside sources that were sure the Sollicetos would be convicted.
 
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Grinder said:
I thought the PGP had inside sources that were sure the Sollicetos would be convicted.
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If I recall there was some inside source that the Hellman court verdict was to be guilty too, long before the trial was over. Maybe the same source?
 
JREF2010 said:
If I recall there was some inside source that the Hellman court verdict was to be guilty too, long before the trial was over. Maybe the same source?
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The team of lawyers over at TJPQ had all the facts as they did on this one and the next. They had powerpoints and everything.

I wonder if Coulsdon and Briars think they are innocent.

ETA -
Grinder, I require an express admission please that the two situations are not equivalent. Otherwise, I am not going to be able to take you seriously anymore. This will count as a disagreement for Coulsdon's benefit.
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Yes, Anglo the situations are different. Locard doesn't really make the distinction in his exchange theory. If you go back, this was about different groups using the Guardian article 180 from each other. You get bet that right now with the refusal to proceed against the Sollecitos the others think Italy's system sucks.
 
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No I don't think they are innocent. Their actions show coverup. There was no evidence of mistreatment to illicit the original story of Amanda being at the cottage.They were not railroaded by Mignini. The exposed Frank saga should give you a clue. The morning shower story and disappearing panic of the locked door was as staged as the break in. There was no shower and there was no need to wipe the floors with the bathmat. There was also no need to make repeated visits to the toilet Grinder. The hairdryer and mirror were not in the bathroom! Bill there doesn't need to be mixed blood unless the perp is bleeding. Mixed blood and Dna is enough. There has been no explanation as to how RS's complete profile came on the clasp. I stand by my hook scraping the finger experiments!The whole cottage was the murder scene Bill not just the room. The girl's relationship was deteriorating. Meredith complained to her sister.The other roommates knew of the tension between them. The defendants have issues drugs, impulsive behavior and possibly a full blown personality disorder IMO. RS ask me anything site and FB page with references to murder and knives is a clue. The guy even lied and said he sent emails that night. Enough, you get my point and I really can't be bothered debating it on a site full of his FB friends as an exercise. I know you miss me but I plan to keep quiet and wait to see how the SC rules.
 
Briars said:
No I don't think they are innocent. Their actions show coverup. There was no evidence of mistreatment to illicit the original story of Amanda being at the cottage.They were not railroaded by Mignini. The exposed Frank saga should give you a clue. The morning shower story and disappearing panic of the locked door was as staged as the break in. There was no shower and there was no need to wipe the floors with the bathmat. There was also no need to make repeated visits to the toilet Grinder. The hairdryer and mirror were not in the bathroom! Bill there doesn't need to be mixed blood unless the perp is bleeding. Mixed blood and Dna is enough. There has been no explanation as to how RS's complete profile came on the clasp. I stand by my hook scraping the finger experiments!The whole cottage was the murder scene Bill not just the room. The girl's relationship was deteriorating. Meredith complained to her sister.The other roommates knew of the tension between them. The defendants have issues drugs, impulsive behavior and possibly a full blown personality disorder IMO. RS ask me anything site and FB page with references to murder and knives is a clue. The guy even lied and said he sent emails that night. Enough, you get my point and I really can't be bothered debating it on a site full of his FB friends as an exercise. I know you miss me but I plan to keep quiet and wait to see how the SC rules.
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Briars - sorry. None of this washes at all.

Their actions? What is it that they were "covering up"? You'll need a timeline here to demonstrate this - rather than just assertions with no basis in fact. The assertions need to be placed in a timeline that explains the evidence.

My point about "mixed blood" is that Mignini and guilters STILL assert that there IS mixed blood. I will note that you do not believe in mixed blood which makes you very different, then, from Mignini and the guilters, like The Machine, who continually post that there is mixed blood found in five places in the cottage.

When presented with this, Mignini eventually moved Amanda out into the hall where he said she directed things. This is a far cry from the three people needed in the room to attack Meredith, which guilters continue to claim.

Have you followed the proof that it was the police who erased Lumumba's incoming text, in effect depriving Amanda of an alibi? In my country the police would have been charged with obstruction of justice.

As for "no evidence" of mistreatment, are you kidding? Even Mignini himself does not rule out that Amanda could have been hit. I also can only repeat that the very reason the police are compelled in law to record these things is so as to resolve disputes. It was the cops who broke the law on this... so who are we going to believe? You've obviously made your choice.

The girls relationship was not deteriorating. Please read the Massei report. After hearing all the testimony from the British friends, the trier of fact disbelieved them. He also disbelieved Guede's claim that he had heard this from Meredith herslef. If the deterioration that Meredith's sister is talking about concerns the use and cleanliness of the toilet... that is well covered. Are you really suggesting that Amanda not being clean about the toilet is a motive for her to kill Meredith?

Which brings in the whole reason to discount that testimony, and Stephanie's suggestions. It's a big, so what? Massei found as factual that the motive was Guede's and did not belong to Amanda at all.... which was the whole point of bringing it up to begin with. Anyone who has ever shared a living space can understand this. It's the biggest canard of all, and patently no reason to suggest it plays any part in the murder.

It shows the desperation in trying to prove something about Amanda that it would even be raised. Massei didn't even believe it. Why would you?

Full blown personality disorder? Are you kidding? This is where you part company with Massei, then. What this case does not need is arm-chair psychologists whi have a keyboard and internet access. If I am wrong about you, I apologize. I work with people trained to make such judgments, and no professional would say what you claim even after seeing someone in a therapeutic environment. If you want to keep this private, please PM me with you psychological training and I will apologize if need be.

This isn't a game.

But thanks for venturing in. I too await the SC. I cannot wait to hear the conspiracy theories that come from the SC's coming ruling....

You do know that they've already been acquited don't you?
 
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Deteriorating?...

Briars said:
<snip>
The girl's relationship was deteriorating. Meredith complained to her sister.The other roommates knew of the tension between them. <snip>
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This is to funny to ignore!

"Gee,
I hate my housemate so, err,
hey Amanda,
wanna let me draw a tattoo on you in the few hours I have left to live?"

"Ahm,
Gosh, I really can't stand that Amanda chick, she drives me nuts!
So a, hey everyone, Filomena, Laura, Amanda,
let's all have a nice lunch together in our pad, the day before Halloween!
Ya know, hang out, talk girl talk, eat something, mmm,mmm,mmm, I'm hungry!"

"And hey Amanda, why don'tcha grab that new boyfriend of yours,
Raf and later on, after we finish our girlz lunchtime get-together,
let's hang with some of my English virgin friends and we'll drink some wine together while out on the town, ok?"

Gosh, Meredith really musta hated that Amanda Knox...

Oh ya,
almost forgot this 1:
"Hey Amanda, is it cool if I use some of your condoms?"

What?

The woman who supposedly was always behaving like a saint,
whom Amanda was supposed to have told her "Now we will make you have sex," as she supposedly sliced her throat,
had borrowed Amanda's condoms to use at some point before her tragic murder?


Yep folks, it must be true,
Meredith hated Amanda!
:confused: :rolleyes: :D
Right, Briars, right...
RW
 
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Raffaele did not lie about the emails

Briars said:
Bill there doesn't need to be mixed blood unless the perp is bleeding. Mixed blood and Dna is enough. There has been no explanation as to how RS's complete profile came on the clasp. I stand by my hook scraping the finger experiments!The whole cottage was the murder scene Bill not just the room. The girl's relationship was deteriorating. Meredith complained to her sister.The other roommates knew of the tension between them. The defendants have issues drugs, impulsive behavior and possibly a full blown personality disorder IMO. RS ask me anything site and FB page with references to murder and knives is a clue. The guy even lied and said he sent emails that night. Enough, you get my point and I really can't be bothered debating it on a site full of his FB friends as an exercise. I know you miss me but I plan to keep quiet and wait to see how the SC rules.
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One, mixed blood and DNA proves what, exactly? Mixed DNA is a common forensic occurrence. Two, the bra clasp does not have Raffaele's complete profile. How could it? Raffaele and Meredith share about ten alleles, and her peaks dominate the clasp. Three, Raffaele probably sent emails very late (or very early the next morning, depending on how one defines the terms). If so, they don't have direct value as exculpatory evidence, but neither would there be any reason for Raffaele to lie about them (which I strongly doubt that he did). The emails (like the playlist) have modest indirect value as evidence to some of us, inasmuch as neither activity sound like what someone who has just committed murder and perhaps not yet executed a miraculous clean-up/disposal of evidence would do with his time. I cannot understand how you can claim that he lied on the basis of absolutely nothing. Four, with respect to Meredith's relationship to Amanda, neither the other roommates nor Giocomo testified to tension. I hope you stay around long enough to explain these things.
 
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