Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[PhantomWolf]

So if you want to get rid of someone in a SYG state you just need to start a fight with that person and pretend to be losing it? Talk about a license to kill...

Are you suggesting that if you start a fight in a SYG state and start losing you have to let them beat you to dead to avoid a murder charge?

The law states that you can use deadly force if you genuinely fear for your life, the SYG part means that you have no requirement to attempt to escape the situation before that moment, ie you don't have to try and flee. When you start the fight, the SYG part of self-defence is nullified, ie you take on the requirement to attempt to escape prior to the use of deadly force being used. What isn't nullified is the right to defend yourself with deadly force if you genuinely feel your life is threatened.

 

[Noztradamus]

Don't take that distance as set and truth, I'm guessing based on lighting and what I think occured. It could be less, though I doubt it was more.



I think they both did, which is natural. If someone is talking to you and moving towards you, it's natural to respond by moving towards them.


If someone is walking towards you and talking to you, walking towards them isn't actually a threatening action, in fact exactly the opposite, we consider it a form of politeness. It's considered rude and agressive to make someone walk all the way over to you. In fact we even have a saying about it. Meeting someone halfway.

~~~~

Actually my view is that your scenario to explain the physical evidence means that George was not attempting to avoid confrontation and puts him as some degree of a manslaughterer. As well as having lied about the actual confrontation.

Perhaps you should stop helping him?

 

[Megalodon]

Are you suggesting that being beaten to death is a regular outcome of losing a fight?

 

[PhantomWolf]

So you complain about film stereotypes (which ones I don't know, most movies show the hero's hands unbruised after a long fistfight), and then you have the audacity of advancing an anime trope?

The small one is the most dangerous?!? Why? Is he over 9000?

That is a bloody idiotic thing to say, and there's a lot of idiotic thing said in this wreck of a thread... One small reminder: LARP is not fighting, and D&D character sheets don't apply to real life.

It actually has nothing to do with Anime, which I don't even watch and wouldn't know an anime troop if I tripped over one.

It comes from knowing a lot of fighters over my rather mis-spent youth when I had real anger issues and used to be bullied a lot. Being bullied and having anger issues is a bad combo that leads to spending a lot of time staring at walls after getting in trouble. I actually took up Karate to help channel and control the anger as well as learning to defend myself better. It helped a lot, I think I only had one fight in a classroom after that.

Most big guys know their strength and won't use it in a fight for fear of doing too much damage. Small guys on the other hand, there really is a thing known as short man syndrone. Out of all the people I used to fight in and out of class, there was only one that scared me who was taller then I was (aboput 6' at the time. He was lighter then me though.) The ones I would never have wanted to fight full contact in a dark alley were all under 5'8".

Sheesh... you were really using the "I doubt you've ever been in a real fight" gambit?

Well firstly he refused to answer, and secondly the way he describes a fight sounds like he thinks that they stand back five paces and wave wet hankies at each other. I can say quite honestly if someone had tried to run from the fights I got into they would have been lying on the ground before they got more than a few paces and it was nothing to do with teleportation or being Mr Elastic. There are two times you can leave a fight successfully. One is when the other person or people involved let you go and don't pursue you. The second is when you have control of the fight and the other guy is down or at a major disadvantage, and even then, if he wants to carry it on, you better be getting out of there fast.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Actually my view is that your scenario to explain the physical evidence means that George was not attempting to avoid confrontation and puts him as some degree of a manslaughterer. As well as having lied about the actual confrontation.

Under Florida law GZ had no responsiblitiy to to avoid confrontation, in fact SYG states exactly that. At no point up to fight had GZ broken a law.

Perhaps you should stop helping him?

I'm not attempting to help him, I'm just saying things as I see them.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Are you suggesting that being beaten to death is a regular outcome of losing a fight?

Are you suggesting that no one has even been killed by being beaten to death in a fight?

 

[This is The End]

No it's a myth because I have actually been in bare fisted fights where people ended up with bleeding noses and black eyes and didn't end up with bleeding and bruised knuckles. I'm talking from actual experience of having been in fights, hence why I questioned if you have been.

You do realize just because it is you and not someone else it is still an anecdote right?

What I really would like to know is, are you going to admit it when I post links that prove you wrong?

Repeatedly punching someone, especially in their face, causes damage to your hands, especially the knuckles.

I can almost guarentee PhantomWolfs response to the links:

"OH, I was only saying it is possible to not have hand damage, not that it is normal!"

Yeah we know, if you barely tap someone a few times, it won't do damage. The problem with that backtrack is you end up telling us that you were just stating the obvious.

Just like earlier when confronted about the tired old "we know everything the prosecution knows" mean PhantomWolf back tracked to:

"OH, I was only saying it is possible that we know everything already."

Again, the problem with that goalpost move is that you end up telling us that you were just stating the obvious.

Yeah it's slightly possible.

And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass a-hoppin'.

 

[Megalodon]

*Ridiculous anecdote about high school "fighters" snipped*

There are two times you can leave a fight successfully. One is when the other person or people involved let you go and don't pursue you. The second is when you have control of the fight and the other guy is down or at a major disadvantage, and even then, if he wants to carry it on, you better be getting out of there fast.

Wrong. You can leave a real, one-to-one streetfight at anytime, as long as you're standing. You run. You will get your ego bruised, but you didn't have to shoot anyone. And no, if they're not in a schoolyard with their friends encouraging them, most people will not chase you.

 

[This is The End]

Are you suggesting that no one has even been killed by being beaten to death in a fight?

Not another "well it's possible"....

 

[This is The End]

And no, if they're not in a schoolyard with their friends encouraging them, most people will not chase you.

Even if they do chase you, there is a 50 percent chance you are faster.

 

[Megalodon]

And about the knuckle damage: It's more likely not to have knuckle damage in a kid's fight then a man's fight. Kids tend to fear the pain of the blow more. So that would explain why there were no cuts in TMs hands.

However, if this is a 16 year old, hitting like a 16 year old would, where the hell is the life threatening situation? Where is the justification for shooting? You can't have it both ways. Either he was an athletic young man ferociously attacking GZ, or he didn't get offensive bruises and cuts, and was not realistically threatening the life of anyone.

Unless being scared is enough justification, in which case we go back to the 'SYG is a license to murder' argument. I slap you, you punch me, I shoot you... "but officer, look at the boo-boo on my nose... I had to shoot him, I was scared..."

 

[Megalodon]

Are you suggesting that no one has even been killed by being beaten to death in a fight?

Show me the numbers.

How many people have been killed by complete strangers that they engaged on a one-to-one, no witnesses bare knuckle fight. When the would be murderer is a non-intoxicated teenager.

I am suggesting that being killed by lightning is much more probable.

 

[Dan O.]

Under Florida law GZ had no responsiblitiy to to avoid confrontation, in fact SYG states exactly that. At no point up to fight had GZ broken a law.

"Get off!"

 

[Megalodon]

Deleted because it was puerile and unnecessary...

 

[PhantomWolf]

Wrong. You can leave a real, one-to-one streetfight at anytime, as long as you're standing. You run. You will get your ego bruised, but you didn't have to shoot anyone. And no, if they're not in a schoolyard with their friends encouraging them, most people will not chase you.

wow, you disagree with me only to agree with my first point, that you can get away if opponent allows you to.

And for the record, most of the fights I got into weren't in the schoolyard with friends encouraging it, in fact I don't think I had one in the schoolyard since I was about 8. Classrooms, yup, hallwall once, but most were off the school grounds because only idiots did the whole ring of morons telling the teachers a fight was going on. Most of the bad ones I got in was when I was 17-18, so about Trayvon's age, after that, I got smart and realised I didn't want to end up in a police cell.

 

[PhantomWolf]

And about the knuckle damage: It's more likely not to have knuckle damage in a kid's fight then a man's fight. Kids tend to fear the pain of the blow more. So that would explain why there were no cuts in TMs hands.

How old was Trayvon again?

However, if this is a 16 year old, hitting like a 16 year old would, where the hell is the life threatening situation? Where is the justification for shooting? You can't have it both ways. Either he was an athletic young man ferociously attacking GZ, or he didn't get offensive bruises and cuts, and was not realistically threatening the life of anyone

.

One thing I have learned about US self defence law, reality has nothing to do with it. The standard is, did they have a geniune fear for their life. If a kid dressed up as Elvis realistically threatening your life? Is a drunken Scotsman banging on your door at 4am realistically threatening your life? If the guy who you have no idea if they plan on your demise or not who is current sitting on you pounding your head realistically threatening your life?

Unless being scared is enough justification, in which case we go back to the 'SYG is a license to murder' argument. I slap you, you punch me, I shoot you... "but officer, look at the boo-boo on my nose... I had to shoot him, I was scared..."

I bang to loundly on your door you shoot me, I wave a dog leash at you, you shoot me... Remember this is the good ole USA here. Being scared IS enough justification, it's been proven over and over and over in cases that have occured there.

 

[Dan O.]

Just like earlier when confronted about the tired old "we know everything the prosecution knows"

BTW: We know for a fact that we don't know everything that the prosecution knows because MOM has told us about information that he received from the prosecution and has choosen not to release to us.

 

[Megalodon]

wow, you disagree with me only to agree with my first point, that you can get away if opponent allows you to.

No, you don't need your opponents collaboration or permission to run away. You just do.

As for the rest of your anecdote, it's as ridiculous as the rest. You are equating kids fighting with life-threatening street fights, and that's apples to oranges.

And please spare me how tough you and your friends were while role-playing Fight Club. It's an anecdote, and I have my own to counter them if needed.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Show me the numbers.

How many people have been killed by complete strangers that they engaged on a one-to-one, no witnesses bare knuckle fight. When the would be murderer is a non-intoxicated teenager.

I am suggesting that being killed by lightning is much more probable.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...conviction-and-acquittal-for-journalist-death

One we just had that involved a punch, concrete and death, though a 20 year old, so just out of teen.

They aren't that hard to find though, where people get punched, have their head hit against something solid and end up dead.

here's another.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...th-coroner-finds/story-fnat79vb-1226525776916

I know you want to have the thinish goal posts possible and so added in about 50 provisios, but the reality is that people die from being punched in the head or having their head hit against concrete, even by teenagers, and it's so common, it's not hard to find stories about it.

Here's another one of a fight going wrong

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/12/03/3646244.htm

another single punch by a teenager leading to a hit head and death

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...punch-tells-inquest-It-was-self-defence..html

How many blows to the head do you need for it to be fatal?

How many time do you have to allow someone to hit your head against something hard or punch you before you can be "in fear for your life?"

 

[Megalodon]

How old was Trayvon again?

17, just a kid... I mistakenly referred to his age as 16, previously.

I bang to loundly on your door you shoot me, I wave a dog leash at you, you shoot me... Remember this is the good ole USA here. Being scared IS enough justification, it's been proven over and over and over in cases that have occured there.

So your position is that GZ didn't murder TM because the law is stupid?