Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

From memory, nothing at all.

Perhaps that part was erased from his draft.

Just on the DNA, you have a funny way of looking at it. You seem to suggest their DNA might well have been where it shouldn't have been but, thanks to the lousy collection techniques etc etc we'll just never know.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me whether Steffie found it there or not because the process was bogus. It could have been that there were two knives used and the second knife (Raf's) was only used for intimidation but a small amount of DNA made its way onto it. Possible but not likely.

Having little details changing as they are asked over and over again doesn't always point to guilt. In fact, I would expect little changes. Way too much is made about these minor differences. The kids were stoned that night, emotions and stress and fear are factors that a lot of people don't understand. People "create" memories and they often can seem to be just as real as the genuine item.

I think not remembering when they ate when asked the next day is not a small detail. Once again, I wished we had the notes or transcripts of the interviews. I don't have any solid idea of what the changing stories really were and that's how I put it earlier.

I repeat that Amanda of her own free will stated that she understood the frustration of the police were having with inability to remember clearly. I understand that some details would clarify over time and could be termed changing when in fact they only being cleared up.

Although it isn't a requirement by law, I don't think they were able to prove they weren't involved. I don't believe any of the witnesses except the woman that said she saw a black man running, but still not a proof of Rudi. I don't understand why there weren't videos from security cameras both private and public that would show activity by the alleged perps.

I think both of you miss my main point which was how both sides looked at the Guardian article. Each side took it as backing their point of view, that's all.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The Guardian discussed six things in Italy that need fixing. Of the justice system, the author wrote, "Slow-moving, hugely bloated and sometimes alarmingly politicised, Italy's justice system needs fixing. In a critical report last year, the Council of Europe's top official for human rights, Nils Muiznieks, said Italy could 'ill-afford' such an inefficient system, which is estimated to waste the equivalent of 1% of GDP. 'The complexity and magnitude of the problem is such that Italy needs nothing short of a holistic rethinking of its judicial and procedural system, as well as a shift in judicial culture,' he wrote of the country's 'excessive' court proceedings."

It was the Guardian that produced an article a week or so ago criticising America’s tendency to treat its officials with impunity and that it’s judiciary effectively is politicised and would not stand up to the administration of the day, this was in relation to the extraordinary rendition case carried out on Italian soil by 23 CIA agents who were eventually tried and convicted in absentia, I don’t see America changing its foreign policy any time soon nor would I expect it to, let alone an American prosecutor and judge issuing extradition warrants on any of the 23 CIA agents.

That old saying springs to mind, people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or maybe do as I say not as I do.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Billy Joel

It was the Guardian that produced an article a week or so ago criticising America’s tendency to treat its officials with impunity and that it’s judiciary effectively is politicised and would not stand up to the administration of the day, this was in relation to the extraordinary rendition case carried out on Italian soil by 23 CIA agents who were eventually tried and convicted in absentia, I don’t see America changing its foreign policy any time soon nor would I expect it to, let alone an American prosecutor and judge issuing extradition warrants on any of the 23 CIA agents.

That old saying springs to mind, people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or maybe do as I say not as I do.

CoulsdonUK,

If you want to start a thread on extraordinary rendition, I say go for it. If I have time, I'll join in. You might be surprised which side I take, but readers of my blog will not be. I have often critiqued the American criminal justice system in passing within these threads. IMO general evaluations of Italy's CJ system are germane, whether or not the same faults are found in another country, or whether or not different faults are found in another country. I am not sure how many times I have said, "Let's have a race to the top" with respect to worldwide judicial reform, but here it is once more with feeling. For these reasons "do as I say not as I do," is meaningless in the context of the present discussion. "Glass Houses" was a pretty good album, though.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

counterfactual

I would say that I put the no motive, no violent history and Raf barely knew Meredith into the same category as rock throwing party, April Fools' prank and coke dealer on speed dial.
SNIP
Obviously, had the PLE gathered the knife and other evidence properly and carried out the tests to protocol and found their DNA that would be very serious.

But the ILE didn't do a good or a good enough job to justify conviction IMO.

Grinder,

I disagree, but the best way to see why is to assume some things that are not true. Let's assume that all negative controls were released, and that all data files were given in electronic form. Let's assume that Meredith's profile were found on the knife not in the low template range, but instead in the normal range of DNA. There is still no blood on the knife, it still does not match the outline, and there still would have to be one knife (unaccounted for), that could have made all of the wounds. Why dispose of one and not the other?

Let's assume that the bra clasp were collected when it should have been. There might still be the problem of the other profiles. Raffaele's lawyers raised the question of whether or not his DNA could get onto the clasp without getting onto other parts of the bra. There is no evidence of Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's clothing or arms, as there might be if he restrained her. Absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence, but it is a pretty good start. Now let me step away from the DNA evidence to contemplate some of the mountain of missing evidence in this case. Where are Amanda's bloody clothes? Where is CCTV footage of them leaving the cottage?

With respect to the Coke dealer, etc., the things in your list are either wildly exaggerated or simply untrue. On the other hand, Amanda and Raffaele's history and the fact that Raffaele barely knew Meredith are true.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

If you want to start a thread on extraordinary rendition, I say go for it. If I have time, I'll join in. You might be surprised which side I take, but readers of my blog will not be. I have often critiqued the American criminal justice system in passing within these threads. IMO general evaluations of Italy's CJ system are germane, whether or not the same faults are found in another country, or whether or not different faults are found in another country. I am not sure how many times I have said, "Let's have a race to the top" with respect to worldwide judicial reform, but here it is once more with feeling. For these reasons "do as I say not as I do," is meaningless in the context of the present discussion. "Glass Houses" was a pretty good album, though.

Halides1

I have read your blog and this may cause you great concern, I agree with a lot of what you have written concerning Guantanamo Bay. To add further pain, I doubt there would be any difference between you and I on the question of extraordinary rendition! Nonetheless, I balk at this kind of looking down one’s nose at Italy’s justice system through this one case, of course it is not perfect nor is America’s, Canada or the UK or any western democracy’s justice system; it is myopic in my opinion to judge Italy’s justice system based Hellmann, Massei or Mignini. Meredith was murdered in Italy, it is absolutely right and proper that this case should be prosecuted in accordance with Italian law whether we as foreigners like it or not.
Anyway I’ll leave you to get over the bombshell.

 

[LondonJohn]

It was the Guardian that produced an article a week or so ago criticising America’s tendency to treat its officials with impunity and that it’s judiciary effectively is politicised and would not stand up to the administration of the day, this was in relation to the extraordinary rendition case carried out on Italian soil by 23 CIA agents who were eventually tried and convicted in absentia, I don’t see America changing its foreign policy any time soon nor would I expect it to, let alone an American prosecutor and judge issuing extradition warrants on any of the 23 CIA agents.

That old saying springs to mind, people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or maybe do as I say not as I do.

This is an intellectually extremely weak argument, unfortunately. An easy way to show just how poor it is would be to reverse the situation: in other words, should an Italian be intellectually and/or ethically prevented from any justifiable criticism of the US's extraordinary rendition policies, simply on account of the reported systemic problems with Italy's criminal justice system?

I would hope that everyone can easily see the answer to that question, and that everyone can therefore equally see how fatally flawed Coulsdon's approach to "reasoning" was.

The fact is, all modern democracies are attempting - in theory at least - to construct and operate judicial systems that are (and are seen to be) fair, transparent, proportionate, consistent and democratic. Now, it's nigh-on impossible to meet all of these requirements all of the time, but that's not to say that a) it shouldn't be a constant goal, and b) any failures to fulfill these requirements shouldn't be held up to the light for scrutiny.

Italy quite clearly has some major systemic failings within its criminal justice system. Most of the failings can be linked either directly or indirectly with one of two things: a slow and reactionary approach to repealing the fascist codes put in place by Mussolini; and the heavy-handed attempts to tackle widespread organised crime and corruption. The US also has some faults (many of which relate to issues such as the reaction to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and the way in which the black underclass was wrongly perceived and treated). The UK has systemic faults, with myriad causes. Pretty much all countries have systemic faults. And all countries of course have individual faults, that are unique to the particular case in question.

But just because the US or UK have identifiable faults, that doesn't negate or even diminish any justification for highlighting Italy's faults. And where those faults have probably had direct impacts upon a specific injustice that we are all discussing, then there;s every reason to highlight and discuss them.

 

[LondonJohn]

CoulsdonUK,

If you want to start a thread on extraordinary rendition, I say go for it. If I have time, I'll join in. You might be surprised which side I take, but readers of my blog will not be. I have often critiqued the American criminal justice system in passing within these threads. IMO general evaluations of Italy's CJ system are germane, whether or not the same faults are found in another country, or whether or not different faults are found in another country. I am not sure how many times I have said, "Let's have a race to the top" with respect to worldwide judicial reform, but here it is once more with feeling. For these reasons "do as I say not as I do," is meaningless in the context of the present discussion. "Glass Houses" was a pretty good album, though.

Exactly.

Although I prefer "Turnstiles" and "The Stranger"....

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This is an intellectually extremely weak argument, unfortunately. An easy way to show just how poor it is would be to reverse the situation: in other words, should an Italian be intellectually and/or ethically prevented from any justifiable criticism of the US's extraordinary rendition policies, simply on account of the reported systemic problems with Italy's criminal justice system?

I would hope that everyone can easily see the answer to that question, and that everyone can therefore equally see how fatally flawed Coulsdon's approach to "reasoning" was.

The fact is, all modern democracies are attempting - in theory at least - to construct and operate judicial systems that are (and are seen to be) fair, transparent, proportionate, consistent and democratic. Now, it's nigh-on impossible to meet all of these requirements all of the time, but that's not to say that a) it shouldn't be a constant goal, and b) any failures to fulfill these requirements shouldn't be held up to the light for scrutiny.

Italy quite clearly has some major systemic failings within its criminal justice system. Most of the failings can be linked either directly or indirectly with one of two things: a slow and reactionary approach to repealing the fascist codes put in place by Mussolini; and the heavy-handed attempts to tackle widespread organised crime and corruption. The US also has some faults (many of which relate to issues such as the reaction to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and the way in which the black underclass was wrongly perceived and treated). The UK has systemic faults, with myriad causes. Pretty much all countries have systemic faults. And all countries of course have individual faults, that are unique to the particular case in question.

But just because the US or UK have identifiable faults, that doesn't negate or even diminish any justification for highlighting Italy's faults. And where those faults have probably had direct impacts upon a specific injustice that we are all discussing, then there;s every reason to highlight and discuss them.

Interesting opinion, I assume you are providing an opinion as opposed to stating a fact, a rhetorical question.

It is flawed in my opinion to make sweeping condemnations of another justice system based on one criminal case and this is largely what I have seen these past years, it’s equally flawed to judge a justice system based on one prosecutor, but that’s my opinion which frankly doesn’t require your agreement or approval.

 

[LondonJohn]

Interesting opinion, I assume you are providing an opinion as opposed to stating a fact, a rhetorical question.

It is flawed in my opinion to make sweeping condemnations of another justice system based on one criminal case and this is largely what I have seen these past years, it’s equally flawed to judge a justice system based on one prosecutor, but that’s my opinion which frankly doesn’t require your agreement or approval.

Oh dear.

Strawman, I'm afraid.

You were questioning the validity (and even the right) of an American to find systemic fault with the Italian criminal justice system - as per the Guardian report - by quoting another Guardian piece criticising US judicial policy. I assume you knew that was what you were doing? After all, it was you who wrote this in that same post:

That old saying springs to mind, people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or maybe do as I say not as I do.

My post was pointing out that this "argument" from you was utterly invalid.

If you come at this issue with any intellectually-valid arguments, then we can have a debate...

 

[Bill Williams]

Halides1

I have read your blog and this may cause you great concern, I agree with a lot of what you have written concerning Guantanamo Bay. To add further pain, I doubt there would be any difference between you and I on the question of extraordinary rendition! Nonetheless, I balk at this kind of looking down one’s nose at Italy’s justice system through this one case, of course it is not perfect nor is America’s, Canada or the UK or any western democracy’s justice system; it is myopic in my opinion to judge Italy’s justice system based Hellmann, Massei or Mignini. Meredith was murdered in Italy, it is absolutely right and proper that this case should be prosecuted in accordance with Italian law whether we as foreigners like it or not.
Anyway I’ll leave you to get over the bombshell.

The truest words you have ever spoken are the ones highlighted. I entirely agree.

In Canada we've had enough of these miscarriages of justice to have had many royal inquiries into the reasons why. The commonalities are astonishing between the cases in Canada which have reached notoriety...

.... although it is not something that proves anything really, but as far as I am concerned the major lessons which Canada's system needs to learn apply in point from to the case in Perugia. Three people were convicted, and two were eventually rightly exonerated.

Your mileage obviously varies. Me, I'm just glad that the two kids are home.

 

[Grinder]

I disagree, but the best way to see why is to assume some things that are not true. Let's assume that all negative controls were released, and that all data files were given in electronic form. Let's assume that Meredith's profile were found on the knife not in the low template range, but instead in the normal range of DNA. There is still no blood on the knife, it still does not match the outline, and there still would have to be one knife (unaccounted for), that could have made all of the wounds. Why dispose of one and not the other?

You are not allowed to disagree! Obey!

Look since you asked, because Rudi had the other knife and ran off with it. The silly reason the PGP have said, because it would be missed in the apartment inventory. Because they didn't use it except for effect and it never had blood on it.

Dealer's choice.

Let's assume that the bra clasp were collected when it should have been. There might still be the problem of the other profiles. Raffaele's lawyers raised the question of whether or not his DNA could get onto the clasp without getting onto other parts of the bra. There is no evidence of Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's clothing or arms, as there might be if he restrained her. Absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence, but it is a pretty good start. Now let me step away from the DNA evidence to contemplate some of the mountain of missing evidence in this case. Where are Amanda's bloody clothes? Where is CCTV footage of them leaving the cottage?

There is evidence of Rudi in F's room. There was no evidence of Rudi in the bathroom except the bloody footprint, but it really wasn't a match. if he washed his feet in the bidet why no DNA?

Chris why do you make me do this? She killed in the nude and therefore had no bloody clothes. She took them home and washed them over three days. She dumped them but the PLE never found them just like Meredith's keys or the other knife.

With respect to the Coke dealer, etc., the things in your list are either wildly exaggerated or simply untrue. On the other hand, Amanda and Raffaele's history and the fact that Raffaele barely knew Meredith are true.

Yes of course you are completely correct. I meant to say I give them equal weight, if that's not what I said. I don't give either their historys or the PGP's talking points weight in the search for truth. I think that most of the PGP's points are exactly as you say, but if they were true I still don't think they should be considered, certainly not in a court of law.

 

[LondonJohn]

Regarding forensic evidence, one must always remember the (morally, ethically and judicially correct) asymmetry between what accusers have to prove to make their case (guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) and what those accused have to prove to make their case (pretty much nothing at all).

And then one must consider the broadly-correct maxim: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". The problem lies when "not evidence of absence" is erroneously misdefined as "evidence of not-absence", which equates to "evidence of presence".

To take one example, the fact that none of Knox's DNA was found on Meredith or in the murder room does not PROVE that Knox was not present at the murder. But obviously nor can it ever show in any way whatsoever that Knox WAS present at the murder. Byt contrast, Guede's DNA and palm print were both found at the murder scene and on/in the victim. And presence of evidence DOES equal evidence of presence.

It was up to the accusers (the prosecutors) to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Knox was guilty of the murder. One of the key elements (while not mandatory, it was nonetheless very important) was to prove that Knox was at the murder scene. They could not do so. It was not up to Knox to prove that she was not at the murder scene.

 

[Bill Williams]

Regarding forensic evidence, one must always remember the (morally, ethically and judicially correct) asymmetry between what accusers have to prove to make their case (guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) and what those accused have to prove to make their case (pretty much nothing at all).

And then one must consider the broadly-correct maxim: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". The problem lies when "not evidence of absence" is erroneously misdefined as "evidence of not-absence", which equates to "evidence of presence".

To take one example, the fact that none of Knox's DNA was found on Meredith or in the murder room does not PROVE that Knox was not present at the murder. But obviously nor can it ever show in any way whatsoever that Knox WAS present at the murder. Byt contrast, Guede's DNA and palm print were both found at the murder scene and on/in the victim. And presence of evidence DOES equal evidence of presence.

It was up to the accusers (the prosecutors) to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Knox was guilty of the murder. One of the key elements (while not mandatory, it was nonetheless very important) was to prove that Knox was at the murder scene. They could not do so. It was not up to Knox to prove that she was not at the murder scene.

The "proof" of Knox at the murder scene was claimed by Massei to exist outside of the murder room. Knox's "biological material" was mingled with minute amounts of Meredith's blood, all outside of the murder room.

The "proof" is also her "confession". Yet, far from an "ever changing story", (sorry for all the quote marks), Knox only ever had two stories. 1) She was at Raffaele's all evening, and 2) she confusedly remembers being at the cottage, but highly doubts it.

This is even before going into the context of #2. What guilters confuse as "she's always changing her stories," is in reality the first version of #1 being told without the notion that her life depended on minute-detail being remembered in precise chronological order, #2 including nothing, really, to do with the crime, and back to #1 with the wonder in the early weeks after her arrest why Raffaele was telling another story. (That he was manipulated in another room just like she'd been in her interrogation room should not detain this.)

Point being - it's the trivial stuff that makes the #2 story so unbelievable. People say that she couldn't hear Lumumba attacking Meredith because Knox had covered her ears. In fact, the "covering my ears" part of these imaginings demonstrate what the problem was with the way the cops planted things into her narrative. They asked her if in her imaginings she had heard Meredith's screams. She said no. They asked, "if you were there, how could you not have heard screams?" She then, and only then, replied that, "maybe I had covered my hears with my hands."

Point being, there's nothing about her presence at the cottage that night which ISN'T a fabrication coached by the cops.

So there it is. Biological material of hers found outside the murder room (found as factual by Massei and undisputed by Hellmann), in the very house she shared with the victim. This plus a nonsensical "confession" which bears all the marks of being induced and planted by the cops. They supplied the narrative.

That's the sum total of the "proof" of her involvement.

I'll leave it to the likes of John Douglas to decide the veracity of this.

 

[Grinder]

There was a time Englishman could say that Italian cars were not reliable.

An Englishman could say that US food is not good.

Even though the English make crummy cars and food.

 

[Bill Williams]

There was a time Englishman could say that Italian cars were not reliable.

An Englishman could say that US food is not good.

Even though the English make crummy cars and food.

Canadians could have had French passion, British government and American know-how. We ended up with British passion, French know-how, and American government. Please pray for us.

 

[acbytesla]

I think LJ makes a very good point. Yes absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.
Or does it? I contend that from a legal perspective it absolutely does and should.

No one can find evidence of me in the murder room, so maybe I did it!!!!
My location and alibi for the specific time and place cannot be corroborated, so maybe I did it!!!!
I have an 8 inch knife that doesn't match the knife wounds on the stain, so maybe I did it!!
My passport doesn't have an Italian stamp in it, but that doesn't prove I've never been to Perugia.

There is as much evidence of me committing this crime as Amanda and Raffaele, so why not lock me up?


Grinder gives no weight to the absence of violent psycho-pathological profiles and lack of criminal histories of Amanda and Raffaele. He gives no weight to the lack of motive. He swats them away saying that these facts are totally irrelevant. He does the same with the absence of motive.

I'd agree with Grinder if there was other significant evidence of Amanda being involved in the murder such as the police finding Amanda's clothes soaked in Meredith's blood or Amanda's fingerprints in Meredith's blood in the murder room.

No physical evidence,
No motive,
No psychological problems
No criminal history
No known arguments or tension between the victim and the suspects
No significant ties to the known killer
No motive

My question to Grinder and Couldson, at what point does the absence of evidence mean anything? At some point, you might think it was relevant????

 

[anglolawyer]

I will arbitrate, since I have not opined on Italy's justice system. Move aside please Grinder.

There are arguments and there are sterile arguments. Into the latter category fall those about whether Italy's criminal justice system is better than anyone else's, whether one's right to criticise it depends on the state of one's own, what the result of the appeals will be and what difference it would have made had Stefanoni been a competent and scrupulously honest scientist. We need to find something else to argue about. How about this:

The question who murdered Meredith Kercher is an intelligence test. If you answered anything but Rudy Guede you failed. Discuss.

 

[Bill Williams]

I will arbitrate, since I have not opined on Italy's justice system. Move aside please Grinder.

There are arguments and there are sterile arguments. Into the latter category fall those about whether Italy's criminal justice system is better than anyone else's, whether one's right to criticise it depends on the state of one's own, what the result of the appeals will be and what difference it would have made had Stefanoni been a competent and scrupulously honest scientist. We need to find something else to argue about. How about this:

The question who murdered Meredith Kercher is an intelligence test. If you answered anything but Rudy Guede you failed. Discuss.

The various justice systems around the world promise some form of closure for victims. When a conviction is overturned, then that reopens what had been closed. Victims are rarely thrilled by that dynamic.

It makes it all the more important for these various systems to get it right the first time around. In this case they did not. No one is arguing that the two students should be, themselves, denied justice just to avoid reopening wounds.

It's just more than intelligence, that's my only point.

 

[RandyN]

No one here needs to justify complaints about the Italian Justice system. The ECOHR has kept records of violations since 1959. You can review this information yourself at this link.
You will notice that Italy and Turkey lead in number of violations by an embarrassingly large margin compared to other member nations...not even close to being civilized.

http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyre...F821056BF32A/0/TABLEAU_VIOLATIONS_EN_2011.pdf

 

[RandyN]

dbl post