Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

How much towards the Tee did this witness see GZ walk ? All the way to the Tee ? Just a few feet ? Weren't the police and the 'flashlight man' already headed down the sidewalk towards GZ at that point ?

Maybe you should actually review the evidence instead of blindly posting denials. Was it you I was arguing this point with previously? Have you found e small tree yet?

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's in that context that people are frustrated with those saying that there's no evidence that George lied or that those lies have been "disproved". Those same people swear that Shellie didn't lie, was asked some sort of vague question, or that we can't possibly know if she "knowingly" lied.

Yes, it's difficult to prove that someone lied. But that's what forensics is for. And in George's case, he foolishly gave three interviews to the police and one more to Hannity and we also have his NEN call. When the SA plays the NEN call and matches it up to the walkthrough, they won't match. And the forensics won't match. And the depiction of Trayvon Martin won't match. I contend that piece by piece, it will become harder and harder to accept his version of events.

The problem is that any trial result is not dependant on accepting his version of events, in fact the Defence doesn't have to even provide a version of events at the trial. A lot of the arguement given here stop at the point of he lied so you can't believe his story. Now that might be enough to convice a Jury, provided the Judge and the Defence forget to do their job and remind the Jury of how to do theirs. The Prosecution don't get to win by default. It's not a case of "The defendant's version is highly suspect therefore what we say happened is what really did by default." Both sides can be wrong. The Prosecution still has to prove their case and provide evidence to back it up. If they want to say GZ started the fight, they have to provide evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he did. If they want to say that he already had his gun out, they have to show beyond reasonable doubt that he did. If they want to claim that he chased Trayon, they have to produce evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he did. The Prosecution's case does not stand on the weakness of GZ's claims, it has to stand on it's own strength, or it will fall as well.

This is my problem here, it's not a case of believing or disbelieving GZ's claims, it's a case of seeing nothing that proves to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it was actually murder. To do this the Prosecution has to show that GZ acted with wilful disregard to Trayon's life, yet as of yet, nothing GZ did has been proven to have done that night can be shown to have been illegal or even unreasonable, let alone reckless.

It is not unreasonable to watch someone from a car, it is not unreasonable to follow someone, it is not even unreasonable to approach someone and ask then what they are doing there. Nothing that we can prove based on the currently released evidence would cause a reasonable person to believe (without hindsight) that those actions would lead to the death of a person. It simply, based on the current evidence, does not make for 2nd Degree Murder.

But at this point, we're arguing in circles so I would prefer to wait until the trial starts when we can all look at the evidence.

I agree, which is why I dropped out of the thread months back, and it hasn't progressed any further.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The location of two of their belongings is south of the body, almost 50 feet from where he claims they fought. It's weird that you don't find that weird.

At first a little, but then I decided to work it out. 50 feet sounds a lot, but in reality, it's not. We're talking the length of just 2 and a half carparks or 3 average cars parked nose to tail. 7 feet is around 2 metres, a torch could easily bounce and roll that far, likely further. A phone? A semi-decent kick on wet grass could propel it for much further than 2 metres. Again, 50 feet sounds a lot, but it really isn't.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Maybe you should actually review the evidence instead of blindly posting denials. Was it you I was arguing this point with previously? Have you found e small tree yet?

You mean back here ?

Yes, we were.

 

[PhantomWolf]

What in the world is with this undying meme that we know all of the details of the case.

Do you people that keep saying this seriously believe this?? Seriously???

It has nothing to do with a meme and everything to do with an observation. We don't know what if anything that the Prosecution has in reserve and hasn't released publically. They might have evidence that will nail GZ to the mast, they might not. We can only determine the state of things from what they have released and say that own opinion may change based on evidence currently being with-held. It's not a statement of belief that there is nothing else that the prosecution is holding back, it's a statement that without knowing what, if anything, they are holding back we can only make judgements based on what they have actually released.

I could respond by asking if you seriously believe that the Prosecution has major damning evidence that they haven't released. The answer is that we just don't know, and thus can only form opinions on what we do know.

I would note as an aside one of the classics from the pro-guilt side for Amanda Knox was that there was evidence that hadn't been released publically, and then when that didn't appear it was that there was evidence that was in the Italian court documents but wasn't in the first trial Judge's summary that proved her guilt. Now that the second Court has thrown out the murder convictions, we're still waiting on that evidence.

 

[KatieG]

A sort of new summary. Interesting points.

http://globalgrind.com/news/12-developments-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-list-photos

 

[Unabogie]

At first a little, but then I decided to work it out. 50 feet sounds a lot, but in reality, it's not. We're talking the length of just 2 and a half carparks or 3 average cars parked nose to tail. 7 feet is around 2 metres, a torch could easily bounce and roll that far, likely further. A phone? A semi-decent kick on wet grass could propel it for much further than 2 metres. Again, 50 feet sounds a lot, but it really isn't.

At least you're in agreement that what is clearly 50 feet, is actually 50 feet. I keep having to go over that point. Note that Elvis still doesn't accept 50 feet as an accurate measurement from the spot on the sidewalk to where the phone and flashlight were found. You are free to argue that 50 feet doesn't mean anything, but arguing that 50 feet isn't really the distance is hand waving.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes. In your link, it shows 37ft from the edge of the sidewalk to the body. George claimed he was standing in the middle of the sidewalk, so add 3 feet. He claims he fell backward, away from the body, so add 3 more feet. That's 43 feet. The cell phone, IIRC, was found about 7 feet to the south of the body. That's 50 feet.

At least you're in agreement that what is clearly 50 feet, is actually 50 feet. I keep having to go over that point. Note that Elvis still doesn't accept 50 feet as an accurate measurement from the spot on the sidewalk to where the phone and flashlight were found. You are free to argue that 50 feet doesn't mean anything, but arguing that 50 feet isn't really the distance is hand waving.

I addressed your post. You ignored my response. You claim he said something in the walk-through. I give you a link to the walk-through so you can point out where exactly he said what you claimed.

*silence*

How is that hand waving ? You are the one hand waving. 3 feet here, 3 feet there, it's in the video even though I can't tell you where ....

 

[PhantomWolf]

A sort of new summary. Interesting points.

http://globalgrind.com/news/12-developments-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-list-photos

I had to love this comment...

Zimmermans nose was not bruised, bloodied or crooked the night he was arrested.

Now compare with photo #5 in the link. Talk about denial of reality.

 

[Unabogie]

I addressed your post. You ignored my response. You claim he said something in the walk-through. I give you a link to the walk-through so you can point out where exactly he said what you claimed.

*silence*

How is that hand waving ? You are the one hand waving. 3 feet here, 3 feet there, it's in the video even though I can't tell you where ....

You posted that link, correct? It shows the distance from the edge of the sidewalk to Trayvon's feet as 37.5 feet. The distance to the phone is an additional 7 feet at a minimum. That's 44.5 feet to the edge of the sidewalk. We know George was walking on the sidewalk in his telling, because he was "walking back to his truck". He turned to look at the approaching Trayvon, which puts him as facing south. Agreed? So let's add in some more evidence. In an earlier version of his story, he claimed to have fallen backwards once hit. So let's say he was ONE foot from the edge of the sidewalk, and fell backwards. That's at least 3 feet, from heel to rump, right? So that's 44.5+3+1= 48.5 feet. At a minimum. Is that really so hard to admit?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You posted that link, correct?

I posted the link to diwatamans blog with the distances.

I posted a link to a youtube video of the walk-through.

It shows the distance from the edge of the sidewalk to Trayvon's feet as 37.5 feet. The distance to the phone is an additional 7 feet at a minimum. That's 44.5 feet to the edge of the sidewalk.

Approximately, yes.

We know George was walking on the sidewalk in his telling, because he was "walking back to his truck". He turned to look at the approaching Trayvon, which puts him as facing south. Agreed?

No, I don't agree. He said TM came up from behind him. He may have turned all the way around to face east for all I know. I don't know where he said what direction he was facing, or what direction TM punched him from (right, left, straight-on)

So let's add in some more evidence. In an earlier version of his story, he claimed to have fallen backwards once hit.

Where ?
https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025
Zimmerman: when he first punched me. I don’t know if I immediately fell down, he threw me down. I was stumbling, I ended up on my back.
Serino: Um hum.

I am backing up what I say with evidence, with GZ words. You are not. That makes it difficult to talk about the evidence when you don't let us know what the actual evidence is.

So let's say he was ONE foot from the edge of the sidewalk, and fell backwards. That's at least 3 feet, from heel to rump, right? So that's 44.5+3+1= 48.5 feet. At a minimum. Is that really so hard to admit?

Yes, it's hard to admit because you are making assumptions about which way backwards is, that he immediately fell down even though I link to his words saying he stumbled or was pushed.

 

[KatieG]

I posted the link to diwatamans blog with the distances.

I posted a link to a youtube video of the walk-through.



Approximately, yes.



No, I don't agree. He said TM came up from behind him. He may have turned all the way around to face east for all I know. I don't know where he said what direction he was facing, or what direction TM punched him from (right, left, straight-on)



Where ?
https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025
Zimmerman: when he first punched me. I don’t know if I immediately fell down, he threw me down. I was stumbling, I ended up on my back.
Serino: Um hum.

I am backing up what I say with evidence, with GZ words. You are not. That makes it difficult to talk about the evidence when you don't let us know what the actual evidence is.



Yes, it's hard to admit because you are making assumptions about which way backwards is, that he immediately fell down even though I link to his words saying he stumbled or was pushed.

His words are not evidence. If they were, we'd be discussing some other case.

 

[PhantomWolf]

His words are not evidence. If they were, we'd be discussing some other case.

This is a silly statment. Of course they are evidence. How much weight you wish to apply to that evidence is what varies, but to claim that it is evidence at all is just... silly.

 

[Unabogie]

No, I don't agree. He said TM came up from behind him. He may have turned all the way around to face east for all I know. I don't know where he said what direction he was facing, or what direction TM punched him from (right, left, straight-on)

In his first telling. We've gone over this a million times in the last thread.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/

Listen to the first recording on this page, approximately 13 minutes in.

"He jumped out from the bushes and he said what the ****'s your problem homie".

"At that point, I fell down".

"As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards into the grass".

Into the grass? So he fell off the sidewalk, backwards, into the grass. Yet that doesn't put him even farther from the body?

Satisfied?

 

[johnny karate]

The evidence that exists seems to me to be in agreement with the important elements of GZ story - TM was beating him and he was afraid and couldn't get away and so GZ shot him.

Why do you dismiss the first part, which sets up the context for the statement ? Based on the evidence, it seems GZ claim of being beaten and couldn't get away seems true. It's an expression of what I believe the evidence supports.

The evidence also indicates aspects of Zimmerman's story are untrue.

He claims he didn't follow Martin. And yet when we listen to the event in real time via the NEN call, he is clearly following Martin.

He claims he just got out of his truck to look for an address and see which way Martin went. He then claims he turned around at the T and returned to his truck when Martin attacked him.

Yet, somehow, Martin's body ended up almost 50 feet farther away from Zimmerman's truck than the altercation supposedly took place, and it was behind the houses in a place where one would not be able to determine an address.

All of this is evidence that Zimmerman lied about not following Martin, his reasons for exiting his truck, and where the altercation took place.

Is it conclusive evidence? No.

But then again, there is no conclusive evidence Martin attacked Zimmerman, that Martin repeatedly punched him, or repeatedly bashed his head on the concrete.

No medical experts have weighed in on the nature and cause of his injuries. We have no idea if they are consistent with the type of assault Zimmerman claims to have suffered.

For all we know, Zimmerman was punched in the nose after assaulting or threatening Martin, hit his head on the cement when he fell and/or during the ensuing struggle in which he also acquired some minor abrasions.

Maybe you should have bolded this part about what I believe:
Frankly, I don't know that I believe that TM said that.

That is, I don't know if I believe GZ claim that TM told him "you gonna die tonight".

Why not? You're perfectly comfortable believing other unsubstantiated claims he's made.

 

[Unabogie]

I love listening to George's stories. They're so fantastical. Yet another thing he said which I think will undo him at trial.

"He put his hand over my mouth, and over my nose...I couldn't breathe..."

Yet no blood was found on Trayvon's hands. It's one of those items where taken alone doesn't mean much, but when you keep piling these things up, his whole tale falls apart.

ETA: Again, we put two pieces of evidence together. We saw pictures of George's nose and there was blood around his nose and mouth. We also know that George claims that he was smothered by the younger, lighter Trayvon and he couldn't breathe. Therefore, Trayvon's hands would HAVE to have been touching that blood. The forensics tell us this is a lie. Is it ok for George to just make up details like that in order to make Trayvon seem more dangerous, when his whole defense is how dangerous the 155 lb kid was? Surely not?

 

[johnny karate]

Where ?
https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025
Zimmerman: when he first punched me. I don’t know if I immediately fell down, he threw me down. I was stumbling, I ended up on my back.
Serino: Um hum.

I am backing up what I say with evidence, with GZ words. You are not. That makes it difficult to talk about the evidence when you don't let us know what the actual evidence is.

Luckily, Zimmerman gave us multiple accounts, so you can support just about any version of events you need to with something he said.

From his original statement to the police:

The suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me.

Yes, it's hard to admit because you are making assumptions about which way backwards is, that he immediately fell down even though...

There's no assumption. Zimmerman claimed exactly that.

... I link to his words saying he stumbled or was pushed.

So... you think Zimmerman was pushed or stumbled almost 50 feet?

 

[Unabogie]

Luckily, Zimmerman gave us multiple accounts, so you can support just about any version of events you need to with something he said.

From his original statement to the police:

The suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me.

I linked to his first recorded interview with Singleton. We know he claimed that Martin approached him from the south. That means Martin was facing north (in George's tale) and George was facing south. He then says that Martin knocked him down backwards into the grass. How does one deny this by quoting his third version of events; a version told after looking at the scene and realizing how his earlier version doesn't add up? So he changed his story right then and we're supposed to just ignore that fact?

There's no assumption. Zimmerman claimed exactly that.

Exactly. That's a fact.

So... you think Zimmerman was pushed or stumbled almost 50 feet?

He doesn't accept that it's 50 feet.

LALALALALA, he can't hear you.

 

[This is The End]

They might have evidence that will nail GZ to the mast, they might not.

Thank you for clarifying your claim.

There is a huge different between that and the frequently repeated meme.

 

[This is The End]

Now do tell what evidens the state has that shows Zimmerman started the fight and/or had his gun out.

You do realize the trial has not happened yet right?