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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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IThat was only the written narrative. He omitted other details from that as well.

This isn't true. He said the same story in his recorded interview (where he asked the cop if she'd ever shot someone). He said "straight down to the ground". He was very clear and specific about this. He claimed to have been hit once and fallen backwards down to the ground (which would move him further away from the body, since he had turned to face Trayvon) Then, when he was taking the police through the scene, he changed his story. I can't tell you why he did this, or what made him think one way was better than the other. But it's a fact he told two different versions of this.
 
tl;dr version:

Translation: I can't be bothered reading and learning the science.

we shouldn't hold George Zimmerman to any sort of exacting standard after he shot and killed an unarmed kid because eye-witnesses are unreliable?

Nice strawman, beat it frequently do you? Try, that we should not hold anyone's witness testimony, no matter who's it is to an exacting standard and demand a perfect reciting of events, because the science says that simply does not happen. It's funny that you are happy to accept and in fact jump with glee on the fact that a number of eye-wittneses changed their versions of what they saw over time, but when it comes to George changing his a story you view that as a clear sign of guilt. Why do they get to change their stories but not him? Why do they get to remember things, realise they got things wrong, and modify their statments, but his must be frozen in time? Can you not see your double standard here?

In reality it is normal human behaviour, we remember things differently as time goes by, sometimes we recall things we didn't in the heat of the moment, other times the memory changes as we replay the incident in our minds to the point of losing the original memory altogether.

That's crazy. The only thing that's stopping people from claiming self-defense in EVERY murder is that their story has to pass the smell test. If scrutiny causes the whole thing to collapse you go to prison.

No, you go to prison because the prosecution proves beyond reasonable doubt that you are guilty. Even if George's story was shot through with holes, the Prosecution still has to prove their case. In a court of law there is a bar that the prosecution has to reach. Consider the Casey Anthony trial. Her story was so full of holes that you could drive a truck through them, but the prosecution failed to actually prove that she was responsible for her daughter's death. In the same way it doesn't matter whether the Jury believe George's story or not, the Prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he actually murdered Trayon, that he was not actually in fear of his life at the moment he pulled the trigger. If they can't do that, he should walk, that is the law.

I can't believe you're actually advocating a standard in which a person can kill someone, claim self-defense, tell a story that falls apart under scrutiny, but still walk since memory is fallible. I reject your standard as, frankly, evil.

I'm advocating that we treat witness testimony scientifically and understand that it is faulty and can never be taken at face value, that picking it apart for inconsistancy is very easy to do since memory is extremely faulty and as such often wrong when compared to other forms of physical evidence, and it is well known that all memory changes over time.

I am advocating that a defendant in a trial is found guilty or not guilty by the evidence, primarily the physical evidence that tells the story and doesn't change and not because of eye-witness testimony (even their own) or confessions since in this day and age we know from extensive studies that those are the worse two forms of evidence there are and that more false convictions occur based on them than any other form of evidence.

I am advocating that the prosecution actually has to do its job to get a conviction, that they have to show that what they claim is correct beyond a reasonable doubt. Not that they have shown that it is possible, not that they have poked holes in the defense's claims, and not that their claim is more likely, but that their claims are true beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is the legal standard, and if you find that to be evil, well then I reject your rejection.
 
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I can't believe you're actually advocating a standard in which a person can kill someone, claim self-defense, tell a story that falls apart under scrutiny, but still walk since memory is fallible. I reject your standard as, frankly, evil.

It's the perfect set up, really.

Murder someone, and then make up any story you want. Whatever parts of your story that conflict with the evidence just blame on trauma-induced faulty memory. Acquittal! It can't miss.

Kids, start planning your murders today!
 
It's the perfect set up, really.

Murder someone, and then make up any story you want. Whatever parts of your story that conflict with the evidence just blame on trauma-induced faulty memory. Acquittal! It can't miss.

Kids, start planning your murders today!

I take it then you're not a believer in the judicial system?
 
I take it then you're not a believer in the judicial system?

I'm well aware of the science around eye witnesses and I agree with you that it's unreliable. I even support minimizing its use in trials. What I don't support is extending that doubt - which exists for witnesses who have no axe to grind - to defendants, who have every reason to lie. A defendant, by definition, is making self serving statements. If his statements don't add up, he does not get a mulligan just because. Especially if he's someone who has admitted killing an unarmed kid, which is something everyone understands requires a good excuse. To argue otherwise is absurd.
 
I'm well aware of the science around eye witnesses and I agree with you that it's unreliable. I even support minimizing its use in trials. What I don't support is extending that doubt - which exists for witnesses who have no axe to grind - to defendants, who have every reason to lie. A defendant, by definition, is making self serving statements. If his statements don't add up, he does not get a mulligan just because. Especially if he's someone who has admitted killing an unarmed kid, which is something everyone understands requires a good excuse. To argue otherwise is absurd.

So you accept that memory is faulty in all cases, except when someone is accused of a crime. At least you admit the double standard.

So how do you tell the difference between an innocent person whose memory of the event is normal and so flawed, and a guilty person trying to be deceptive? Or in your world are innocent people scientific anomalies who never have flawed memory of events like everyone else does?

You also seem to think that I am suggesting that they should just let him go. I'm not, I'm all for a trial, but I expect more evidence than "His story was inconsistant."

The argument I am getting here is "His story in inconsistant, therefore he is lying, therefore he is guilty." I sure that there is a fallacy or two in that logic.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, what does matter is that there is actually some proof that he is guilty, and unless the Prosecution is hiding something, they simply don't have enough in this case to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, and just proving he lied isn't anywhere near that bar.
 
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just proving he lied isn't anywhere near that bar.


Do you even read these sentences that you type? What kind of ridiculously general statement is that?

Proving he lied about any number of things would be very damaging to Z's defense.

For instance, if they can prove that Z had his gun out already he is in bad trouble. According to Z the gun was never out until M went for it in Z's pants.

Or if they can prove Z lied about who started the fight, it would not be good, not quite as bad as proving he had the gun out already, but still bad.

Alternately, if they can prove Z lied about what color shirt M was wearing, it won't really matter.

Some lies won't matter. Others will. Not that hard of a concept here.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm still befuddled by your insistence that no one ever lies if it can easily be disproved.
Because this particular 'lie" is not only disproved, it has no material affect whatsoever on Zimmerman's claims. Just like Norm Manetta being off on the times in his Congressional testimony has no material effect on proving "the official story".

Why don't you explain how Zimmerman being a few feet off on his recollection of where the shooting occurred makes any material difference on his claims? What would the motivation be?
 
I'm not sure I get it either. It's not like this is some minor, insignificant nitpick. Determining where the altercation took place in relation to where Zimmerman claims it did is a pretty important detail.
Do tell how that ten feet or so you claim he was off is "pretty important" and "significant" and turns the shooting from self-defense to murder.
 
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Do you even read these sentences that you type? What kind of ridiculously general statement is that?

Proving he lied about any number of things would be very damaging to Z's defense.

For instance, if they can prove that Z had his gun out already he is in bad trouble. According to Z the gun was never out until M went for it in Z's pants.

Or if they can prove Z lied about who started the fight, it would not be good, not quite as bad as proving he had the gun out already, but still bad.

Alternately, if they can prove Z lied about what color shirt M was wearing, it won't really matter.

Some lies won't matter. Others will. Not that hard of a concept here.
Hey, you get it!

Now do tell what evidens the state has that shows Zimmerman started the fight and/or had his gun out.
 
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But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, what does matter is that there is actually some proof that he is guilty, and unless the Prosecution is hiding something, they simply don't have enough in this case to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, and just proving he lied isn't anywhere near that bar.

I've been beating this drum for quite a while. The SA has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that was not acting in self defense.

They typical response is along the lines of "Zimmerman lied, therefor he's guilty."
 
Because this particular 'lie" is not only disproved, it has no material affect whatsoever on Zimmerman's claims. Just like Norm Manetta being off on the times in his Congressional testimony has no material effect on proving "the official story".

Why don't you explain how Zimmerman being a few feet off on his recollection of where the shooting occurred makes any material difference on his claims? What would the motivation be?

The distance he's off may be as much as 50 feet. If the prosecution can prove that, the importance lies in disproving Zimmerman's claim that he stopped his pursuit of Martin and was returning to his truck when he was attacked.

Proving the altercation took place 50 feet farther way from his truck than he claimed could be one piece of evidence the prosecution uses to argue that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin, and was in fact the aggressor in the altercation.
 
I've been beating this drum for quite a while. The SA has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that was not acting in self defense.

They typical response is along the lines of "Zimmerman lied, therefor he's guilty."

Putting stuff in quotes when you can't attribute those words is a good sign you're arguing with a strawman.
 
I've been beating this drum for quite a while. The SA has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that was not acting in self defense.

They typical response is along the lines of "Zimmerman lied, therefor he's guilty."

It's more along the lines of "Zimmerman lied about the justification he's offered for killing someone, therefore he's guilty". But you're close.

And I'm not sure if that's any more egregious than your position of "I don't care if Zimmerman is lying, I still believe him anyway."
 
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Putting stuff in quotes when you can't attribute those words is a good sign you're arguing with a strawman.

It seems like an accurate summary of your position:

If you say so. What is it you think you can prove that he lied about that will disprove his claim that TM was reaching for his gun and he was afraid of being killed ?
I've told you this many times. The timeline doesn't match when he claims to have been walking back to his truck. The body is in the wrong spot. He denies ever following Trayvon and claims to have been only looking for an address. He claims Trayvon spoke in ghetto speak.

All of this will crumble at trial.

I asked you what will disprove GZ claim of self defense, of being afraid of great bodily harm ?

Your answer was all the lies he told about other parts of the story.

*shrugs*
 
It's more along the lines of "Zimmerman lied about the justification he's offered for killing someone, therefore he's guilty". But you're close.

And I'm not sure if that's any more egregious than your position of "I don't care if Zimmerman is lying, I still believe him anyway."

That is a straw man. I can say with certainty that TheL8Elvis has not said he believed him. Neither have most of the participants who've argued against your position. It has always been about the belief that there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to prove he is guilty. There is a difference between the two positions.
 
I'm at the point that even if POC GZ went hunting for a POC to shoot, he will not be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt on the evidence so far presented.

Previously mentioned was C. Anthony's acquittal even though she didn't seem able to ever be truthful.
 
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