Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[christianahannah]

Okay a question to anyone who cares to answer; apart from the obvious comfort you all get from agreeing with each other. Mignini still remains free and in position so what have the exchanges for the past 4 years actually achieved?

I assume that you are referring to Mignini's personal court battles and not to the Kercher case as a whole?

I think it is as you state - Mignini is free, as of now, not indicted of any crime, and in a position of authority in Perugia. Whether this facts will be the same in the future will remain to be seen.

I do not think the charges against him were fair (in the MoF case or the perception of him in the Kercher case). I think he has a heart for justice for those who have been victimized and to try to make the area of which he is over a better place for those who live there. I think he believes in the ideal of justice. This doesn't mean that he can't be in error, however, if he is it isn't because of some planned conspiracy or that he is evil. Life isn't error proof even when someone is good and/or honest.

I know not many will agree with my opinion. What those think en masse may or may not be valid, however, I am not swayed either way. I do read and research quite a lot and sometimes others opinions are held up by what I read but in the case of Mignini I haven't found this to be the case - at least in the respect that he is evil or a law breaker or a conspirator. I don't even know if the "fact" that he is law suit happy is even wholly true.

I know this is a whole lot of "I think" but it is my impression of Mignini and has been from the beginning. I know others have a different impression.

 

[Grinder]

Okay a question to anyone who cares to answer; apart from the obvious comfort you all get from agreeing with each other. Mignini still remains free and in position so what have the exchanges for the past 4 years actually achieved?

First of all we certainly here have differences.

Mignini has been free all along and it was clear that if he were to ever serve a day it would be after the supremes ruled on this case. Although Bill disagrees with me I still think that Mignini being convicted by the only court that ruled on the merits of the case is comforting, in that even in Italy there is some control put on the prosecutors. If he is so convinced of his innocence, why doesn't he demand a new trial in Turin to fully demonstrate his innocence?.

Although, the PGP say it is all over for Mignini I have read that the case was referred to Turin which means by definition there still is a case.

What have the exchanges accomplished? If you mean in relationship to his legal status in Italy, then the answer is what I thought it would accomplish, nothing. Had no one discussed it I would have known less and you wouldn't had the chance to at us.

Why don't you discuss what has been the focus much more so, his behavior in this case.

Why did he want them held for a year with no charges? Why didn't he go after Stefanoni for not releasing data? Why didn't he aid in seeking the truth but only a conviction? Why did he tell the fable of not having enough money to record? Why did he erase Patrick's message?

 

[anglolawyer]

snip
Why did he erase Patrick's message?

He did what?

 

[Grinder]

I know this is a whole lot of "I think" but it is my impression of Mignini and has been from the beginning. I know others have a different impression.

I would love for a Italian reader to do some research and tell how common these defamation/calumnia lawsuits really are. Is it really normal to charge someone for the repeating of a defendants statement about police behavior to a reporter? Is it common not to record statement made in a police station about a murder by a person that at best could be described as "nearly" a suspect?

Is it common for a prosecutor to arrest journalists and shut down blogs? Is it common for a prosecutor to consult mediums for information on a case? Is it common for prosecutors to wiretap cops?

Do you believe that the interrogations were handled in a legal way? An ethical way? A moral way?

Mignini fired the coroner because he leaked information. Obviously the police and other PLE were leaking from the very beginning, such things as what was said to the police, theories of sex games and rituals associated with Halloween yet no one was charged or dismissed, why.

Something was rotten and it wasn't in Denmark.

 

[Bill Williams]

Okay a question to anyone who cares to answer; apart from the obvious comfort you all get from agreeing with each other. Mignini still remains free and in position so what have the exchanges for the past 4 years actually achieved?

Yes, I do disagree with Grinder... partially, really. The case against Mignini for abuse of office is in the hands of a Turin prosecutor to see if it starts its journey again.... but at this time there is no legal conviction against the man.

But I am glad that as 25 March nears, the focus is finally going to where it always began. Hell, a school girl from Seattle and a computer geek from Italy have had their lives scrutinized in a manner unprecedented - photographed and photoshopped from every angle to produce an image favourable to the prosecution's ever changing case.....

..... and what do they now have to show for it as 25 March nears? That this school girl perhaps once did a cartwheel. And then again, maybe not.

Put that side by side with what is known about Mignini, who himself says that he's been victimized, "ever since Narducci". He launched legal action against all sorts of people on one side of this "victimization" while giving a free pass to everyone on his side - not the least of which is John Follain.

Twenty years from now people will look back at this and it will be clear as day what is happening here.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Perugia, the windy city

Yes, that's my reaction as well. The only way to make sense of it is that the prosecution never believed that anything they did would be subjected to scrutiny of any kind. Witness the 2nd conjuring trick, in which they allowed themselves to be filmed "finding" the bra clasp, clearly demonstrating that they knew what its significance would be, before it was ever tested!

Their arrogance and naivety is quite breathtaking.

They demonized the defendants in public; however, they did not foresee the backlash against such demonization once a sufficient number of people saw this tactic for what it was. The prosecution sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. In terms of forensics, the present case closely parallels the case of Lindy Chamberlain. Yet in the force of the whirlwind, it loosely parallels the Duke lacrosse case.
ETA
Lindy Chamberlain was unfairly demonized in the media; however, I have yet to see evidence that the prosecution had a hand in whipping this up.

 

[acbytesla]

Coulsdon, I give you credit for mixing it up. If you're talking about what has all the criminal procedures amounted to after 4 years, the answer is little or nothing. But I think we both know that this has had nothing to do with the evidence of whether Mignini is guilty or innocent and more to do with the byzantine and inefficient Italian legal system.

Italy's system has some merits, but it has serious flaws as well with the biggest that Innocent people are often locked up for a long time waiting for justice and guilty people often are able to run out the clock because of a complex appeal and almost feudal system of courts that lacks a clear hierarchy.

Whatever anyone's opinion of Mignini may be, he has been around long enough to know how to work the system. Which is clear by both the Kercher case and his own.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, I do disagree with Grinder... partially, really. The case against Mignini for abuse of office is in the hands of a Turin prosecutor to see if it starts its journey again.... but at this time there is no legal conviction against the man.

But I am glad that as 25 March nears, the focus is finally going to where it always began. Hell, a school girl from Seattle and a computer geek from Italy have had their lives scrutinized in a manner unprecedented - photographed and photoshopped from every angle to produce an image favourable to the prosecution's ever changing case.....

..... and what do they now have to show for it as 25 March nears? That this school girl perhaps once did a cartwheel. And then again, maybe not.

Put that side by side with what is known about Mignini, who himself says that he's been victimized, "ever since Narducci". He launched legal action against all sorts of people on one side of this "victimization" while giving a free pass to everyone on his side - not the least of which is John Follain.

Twenty years from now people will look back at this and it will be clear as day what is happening here.

I'm not sure that will be the case of BR Mull, Peggy or Peter. You would think it would be clear as day already to anyone who has actually studied the case.

But some are just hanging on to their early conclusions with their teeth.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Guardian weighs in on Italy's justice system

The Guardian discussed six things in Italy that need fixing. Of the justice system, the author wrote, "Slow-moving, hugely bloated and sometimes alarmingly politicised, Italy's justice system needs fixing. In a critical report last year, the Council of Europe's top official for human rights, Nils Muiznieks, said Italy could 'ill-afford' such an inefficient system, which is estimated to waste the equivalent of 1% of GDP. 'The complexity and magnitude of the problem is such that Italy needs nothing short of a holistic rethinking of its judicial and procedural system, as well as a shift in judicial culture,' he wrote of the country's 'excessive' court proceedings."

 

[Grinder]

I can see the system being faulty across the board. The PGP and PIP can see, it seems only one side. For the PGP Hellmann is at best a senile and at worst a corrupt judge, while the PIP see Massei as a simpleton that was bowled over by Mignini.

The bottom line is that the PLE botched this case and didn't prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when bogus evidence such as the DNA is removed.

 

[acbytesla]

I can see the system being faulty across the board. The PGP and PIP can see, it seems only one side. For the PGP Hellmann is at best a senile and at worst a corrupt judge, while the PIP see Massei as a simpleton that was bowled over by Mignini.

The bottom line is that the PLE botched this case and didn't prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when bogus evidence such as the DNA is removed.

I find it amusing that you say that the those that now believe in Amanda's innocence can only see one side Grinder, since I use to believe in their guilt. I am not familiar with Italian law, so I cannot really comment much on the legal decisions as it pertains to Italian law. For the life of my I am left in a state of confusion about their laws as in regards to witness and suspects and statements.
I don't know what to make of Mignini, other than to say that he's a bully. As for Massei, he contradicts his own logic in multiple places. Such as saying that Amanda had to be far from Raffaele's flat when she received PL's text because of the cell antenna that connected the call, but later in the same decision he writes that Amanda made two calls from Raffaele's that connected to that very same antenna.

My perception of this case is based upon the logic, pure and simple.

1. I can see no reason why Amanda would have killed her roommate. They had known each other for barely over a month and there is no evidence at all of any animosity between each other and in fact, all the available evidence points to a good relationship.
2. I can see no reason why Raffaele would have killed Meredith. He was really barely familiar with Amanda, let alone Meredith.
3. Neither had any history of any kind of violence. No psycophathological predisposition toward violence of any kind by either Amanda or Raffaele.
4. The time of death clearly was before 10:13 as evident by by the GPRS connection that is extremely unlikely to have taken place at the cottage because the Wind cell signal was at a bare minimum 10 times weaker than the Lupatelli cell signal and the base station would have known that.

I put no faith in witnesses that come forward 6 months to a year later, especially homeless heroin addicts who seem to be professional witnesses judging by the number of times he has testified in court cases including 2 other murder trials.

The evidence in favor of guilt include:

• very suspect witnesses.
• A break in that the police claim was staged, but provided nothing to substantiate the claim,
• footprints that really cannot be attributed to anyone.
• tainted and illogical DNA evidences

I've simply come to the conclusion that there is nothing there. What have a I missed?

 

[anglolawyer]

I assume that you are referring to Mignini's personal court battles and not to the Kercher case as a whole?

I think it is as you state - Mignini is free, as of now, not indicted of any crime, and in a position of authority in Perugia. Whether this facts will be the same in the future will remain to be seen.

I do not think the charges against him were fair (in the MoF case or the perception of him in the Kercher case). I think he has a heart for justice for those who have been victimized and to try to make the area of which he is over a better place for those who live there. I think he believes in the ideal of justice. This doesn't mean that he can't be in error, however, if he is it isn't because of some planned conspiracy or that he is evil. Life isn't error proof even when someone is good and/or honest.

I know not many will agree with my opinion. What those think en masse may or may not be valid, however, I am not swayed either way. I do read and research quite a lot and sometimes others opinions are held up by what I read but in the case of Mignini I haven't found this to be the case - at least in the respect that he is evil or a law breaker or a conspirator. I don't even know if the "fact" that he is law suit happy is even wholly true.

I know this is a whole lot of "I think" but it is my impression of Mignini and has been from the beginning. I know others have a different impression.

A knave or a fool, or both, and (so far) a loser too. And I didn't say 'I think' once.

 

[anglolawyer]

I can see the system being faulty across the board. The PGP and PIP can see, it seems only one side. For the PGP Hellmann is at best a senile and at worst a corrupt judge, while the PIP see Massei as a simpleton that was bowled over by Mignini.

The bottom line is that the PLE botched this case and didn't prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when bogus evidence such as the DNA is removed.

With Coulsdon's beady eye on us we had better disagree about something. OK, so what do you think would have happened had the PLE been competent?

 

[acbytesla]

With Coulsdon's beady eye on us we had better disagree about something. OK, so what do you think would have happened had the PLE been competent?

Pretty simple don't you think Anglo? Almost what did happen. They do their jobs, discover Rudy's fingerprint, find him, arrest him and prosecute him.

Amanda is not arrested, Rudy is not arrested, Patrick Lumumba is not arrested.
Amanda stays with Raffaele until she can find a place to live....because she can't and doesn't want to move back into the cottage. She finishes her year of school in Italy and comes back home.

And none of us would be wasting our time on this case and we would say Amanda who? and Meredith who? and Raffaele who?

 

[anglolawyer]

Pretty simple don't you think Anglo? Almost what did happen. They do their jobs, discover Rudy's fingerprint, find him, arrest him and prosecute him.

Amanda is not arrested, Rudy is not arrested, Patrick Lumumba is not arrested.
Amanda stays with Raffaele until she can find a place to live....because she can't and doesn't want to move back into the cottage. She finishes her year of school in Italy and comes back home.

And none of us would be wasting our time on this case and we would say Amanda who? and Meredith who? and Raffaele who?

Hmm, that's no good. I can't find anything much to disagree about there. Hopefully Grinder will set us all to squabbling about something.

 

[Grinder]

Hmm, that's no good. I can't find anything much to disagree about there. Hopefully Grinder will set us all to squabbling about something.

That up to you dude

I would say that I put the no motive, no violent history and Raf barely knew Meredith into the same category as rock throwing party, April Fools' prank and coke dealer on speed dial.

I wish we had access to the transcripts or notes of the interviews with R and A that transpired before the 5th. Recently again someone over there said something about R saying A asked him to lie. I don't recall ever seeing such a statement in black and white where verified. Anglo/Bill what does the Follain say about that?

If in fact much of the "changing" details is true, depending on what details it could be pointing towards guilt. If the interviews were recorded and they showed that A just named PL on her own, that would point.

Obviously, had the PLE gathered the knife and other evidence properly and carried out the tests to protocol and found their DNA that would be very serious.

But the ILE didn't do a good or a good enough job to justify conviction IMO.

I was speaking about the Italian legal system and how the different groups reacted to the two rulings. I think both rulings can be questioned. I believe that both rulings could be questioned for incompetence or corruption.

 

[acbytesla]

That up to you dude

I would say that I put the no motive, no violent history and Raf barely knew Meredith into the same category as rock throwing party, April Fools' prank and coke dealer on speed dial.

I wish we had access to the transcripts or notes of the interviews with R and A that transpired before the 5th. Recently again someone over there said something about R saying A asked him to lie. I don't recall ever seeing such a statement in black and white where verified. Anglo/Bill what does the Follain say about that?

If in fact much of the "changing" details is true, depending on what details it could be pointing towards guilt. If the interviews were recorded and they showed that A just named PL on her own, that would point.
Obviously, had the PLE gathered the knife and other evidence properly and carried out the tests to protocol and found their DNA that would be very serious.

But the ILE didn't do a good or a good enough job to justify conviction IMO.

I was speaking about the Italian legal system and how the different groups reacted to the two rulings. I think both rulings can be questioned. I believe that both rulings could be questioned for incompetence or corruption.

Well I think if the interviews were recorded, virtually no one who speaks English would believe Amanda was guilty. I think much of the problem with why the Italians thought she was guilty was the language problem. So much was undoubtedly lost in translation.

 

[Grinder]

Well I think if the interviews were recorded, virtually no one who speaks English would believe Amanda was guilty. I think much of the problem with why the Italians thought she was guilty was the language problem. So much was undoubtedly lost in translation.

Well, okay, but had they recorded the early interviews and she was changing times throughout the process it would be a pointer towards guilt. They blew it if that was the case, IMO. She, herself, admits that her recounting of events wasn't as definitive as it should have been. I also think the luminol prints with AK's DNA is a problem. Not so much with blood and DNA in the bathroom. If however I thought the PLE had done a first class job and only AK's DNA was found with MK's that too would be an issue. If they had taken reference prints of the other girls and they definitely weren't the source of the luminol prints that too would add to pointers.

I fully understand the arguments made about the prints and on their own they are not worth much of anything.

I only stated that the Guardian article would be read by the two sides completely differently. One side would accuse Hellmann of being senile or corrupt while the other side would say similar things about Massei.

I have never believed the scenarios about how the PGP thought the crime occurred. I certainly don't believe that the trial proved beyond a reasonable doubt anything.

 

[anglolawyer]

That up to you dude

I would say that I put the no motive, no violent history and Raf barely knew Meredith into the same category as rock throwing party, April Fools' prank and coke dealer on speed dial.

I wish we had access to the transcripts or notes of the interviews with R and A that transpired before the 5th. Recently again someone over there said something about R saying A asked him to lie. I don't recall ever seeing such a statement in black and white where verified. Anglo/Bill what does the Follain say about that?

From memory, nothing at all.

If in fact much of the "changing" details is true, depending on what details it could be pointing towards guilt. If the interviews were recorded and they showed that A just named PL on her own, that would point.

Obviously, had the PLE gathered the knife and other evidence properly and carried out the tests to protocol and found their DNA that would be very serious.
But the ILE didn't do a good or a good enough job to justify conviction IMO.

I was speaking about the Italian legal system and how the different groups reacted to the two rulings. I think both rulings can be questioned. I believe that both rulings could be questioned for incompetence or corruption.

Just on the DNA, you have a funny way of looking at it. You seem to suggest their DNA might well have been where it shouldn't have been but, thanks to the lousy collection techniques etc etc we'll just never know.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, okay, but had they recorded the early interviews and she was changing times throughout the process it would be a pointer towards guilt. They blew it if that was the case, IMO. She, herself, admits that her recounting of events wasn't as definitive as it should have been. I also think the luminol prints with AK's DNA is a problem. Not so much with blood and DNA in the bathroom. If however I thought the PLE had done a first class job and only AK's DNA was found with MK's that too would be an issue. If they had taken reference prints of the other girls and they definitely weren't the source of the luminol prints that too would add to pointers.

I fully understand the arguments made about the prints and on their own they are not worth much of anything.

I only stated that the Guardian article would be read by the two sides completely differently. One side would accuse Hellmann of being senile or corrupt while the other side would say similar things about Massei.

I have never believed the scenarios about how the PGP thought the crime occurred. I certainly don't believe that the trial proved beyond a reasonable doubt anything.

Having little details changing as they are asked over and over again doesn't always point to guilt. In fact, I would expect little changes. Way too much is made about these minor differences. The kids were stoned that night, emotions and stress and fear are factors that a lot of people don't understand. People "create" memories and they often can seem to be just as real as the genuine item.