Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Hmm, it's definitely a little strange seeing the guy with the Jewish stereotype Ferenghi avatar lecturing people on racism.

If I could be arsed I'd sign up specifically to point that out. But life is far too short.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Incidentally, I wonder if any of the posters in that thread know mistermack's race for sure? Because, if not then, by calling his post racist, they're necessarily assuming that he must be white or, at least, in a larger and more powerful social group than Hindus/Indians in the UK. Otherwise they're simultaneously calling someone racist while arguing that he cannot, by definition, be racist.

 

[jhunter1163]

Wow. I'd heard of the "Dear Muslima" letter, but had never actually read it. I'm no fan of RW's, but that was harsh.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Wow. I'd heard of the "Dear Muslima" letter, but had never actually read it. I'm no fan of RW's, but that was harsh.

Harsh and stupid.

I think few people came out of ElevatorGate well. Off the top of my head I can only think of Stef McGraw.

 

[Nihilus]

Harsh and stupid.

Well, stupid in the sense that it subtly highlights how "privilege" is mostly a phantom issue harped on in lieu of the misogyny it simultaneously tries to parallel itself to, covertly demeaning it...and he does it cynically and without explaining it in handfuls of paragraphs likely because pointing this out typically elicits emotionalism rather than rational discourse.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Wow. I'd heard of the "Dear Muslima" letter, but had never actually read it. I'm no fan of RW's, but that was harsh.

No! No! No!

You must support everyone on one side of the argument, everything they've ever said or done, and everything they will say in the future. PZ is giving lessons if you need a refresher course.

This is why we're really unsuited for this battle. People who want to look at all sides of a problem and point out the missing logic and the flaws in the argumentation are simply not welcome in the New Skepticism Schism Debate, much the same as compromise is not welcome at A+.

 

[theprestige]

Incidentally, I wonder if any of the posters in that thread know mistermack's race for sure? Because, if not then, by calling his post racist, they're necessarily assuming that he must be white or, at least, in a larger and more powerful social group than Hindus/Indians in the UK. Otherwise they're simultaneously calling someone racist while arguing that he cannot, by definition, be racist.

Actually, I think this one is pretty easily justified: Racism is racial bigotry plus institutional support, right?

So it follows that any remark that reinforces the institutional support of racial bigotry is racist, regardless of the actual race of the person making the remark.

Uncle Toms are racist (against blacks) by definition, in spite of being black themselves.

Djangos Unchained, out for revenge against whitey, on the other hand, cannot be racist (by the sociological definition); they can only be racially bigoted.

What I found hilariously depressing was how quickly that thread derailed; and how quickly everyone, mods and members alike, committed heart and soul to the derail.

The "sociological definition" meme, meanwhile, makes a mountain out of a molehill, and robs otherwise intelligent human beings of the ability to understand natural English in context.

Everybody could have easily understood mistermack's use of the word in context. Anyone who didn't could have figured it out the moment the first exchange of blows had concluded. But all of them chose to misunderstand him, because it's apparently more satisfying to yell "racist" than to just get on with the actual topic of the thread.

 

[theprestige]

Wow. I'd heard of the "Dear Muslima" letter, but had never actually read it. I'm no fan of RW's, but that was harsh.

It seems clear to me that Dawkins felt his chosen forum would not permit him to say in plain English, "Dear Rebecca Watson, go **** yourself."

ETA: Now that I think about it, I think that Dawkin's letter is mostly offensive for appropriating someone else's struggle as a cheap prop for their own rhetorical slap-fight.

 

[Foolmewunz]

It seems clear to me that Dawkins felt his chosen forum would not permit him to say in plain English, "Dear Rebecca Watson, go **** yourself."

ETA: Now that I think about it, I think that Dawkin's letter is mostly offensive for appropriating someone else's struggle as a cheap prop for their own rhetorical slap-fight.

I think he achieved what he wanted to in the minimal space, but it was quite heavy-handed and I concur that it was a cheap prop. There are any number of ways to say, "let's put this whole flap in perspective, okay?", and he chose the most dramatic. I can't speak for Dawkins. Maybe those were his thoughts when the whole thing blew up and he simply felt that someone had to state them. Although it was not poorly written, I still felt it was written when he was hot under the collar and he might've waited to pen his response. My own (slightly cynical) read is that he'd just spent time with her at a conference and had just had his fill of RW.

 

[Furi]

OK just read quite a lot more of this thread, as I had missed it out as I thought the mark of Poe was all over it.

but after hearing it commented on in the pub, I thought I would check it out again.

So now after reading this thread, linked blogs, Forums, et al, I am now thinking WtF.

The entire A+ thing, seems like a parody of SWP meetings* and the Viz character Millie Tant.

I do see the advantage of such a corn studded movement however, next time It get's argued that some atheists are horrendously bigoted, ego massaging twunts, I can advise that they are correct, they refer to themselves as plussers and they have a special area to play in, no sharp scissors and locked access to the paste cupboard, as they "Do not play nice with other children.".

So I will say that after reading about them I am now much happier in my white, cis gendered, beer swilling, farting, bacon munching, smoking, lecherous, occasional misogynistic, schadenfreudic, can't resist making a joke no matter how inappropriate it might seem, godless privileged state.

*SWP Socialist workers party, last time I went to a meeting it was held in a wine bar where you got "Tempura of Pacific white fish fillets nestling in an English Pea puree accompanied by Rustic cut Panfried Maris Piper Potatoes, accompanied by Sweetened Tomato salsa" for £12.50, and a crap beer cost £4.00.

 

[recursive prophet]

Just spent 15 minutes or so looking into the wacky world of RW, and saw the infamous video for the first time. So regarding what I asked about earlier I now see she did mention his hotel room as the place he was inviting her to.

I still think it's quite suspicious the elevator guy, if he exists, hasn't come forward. Certainly I wouldn't be surprised if a publicity seeker as driven as RW would make up such an encounter to enhance her views and attain more attention. Have any of her opponents asked her to describe this guy and asked about the time it took place? Talked to others who attended?

 

[Mr. Scott]

No! No! No!

You must support everyone on one side of the argument, everything they've ever said or done, and everything they will say in the future. PZ is giving lessons if you need a refresher course.

This is why we're really unsuited for this battle. People who want to look at all sides of a problem and point out the missing logic and the flaws in the argumentation are simply not welcome in the New Skepticism Schism Debate, much the same as compromise is not welcome at A+.

Yes, screw reality and fight for your side no matter what. Winning is the only thing that matters.

 

[squealpiggy]

*SWP Socialist workers party, last time I went to a meeting it was held in a wine bar where you got "Tempura of Pacific white fish fillets nestling in an English Pea puree accompanied by Rustic cut Panfried Maris Piper Potatoes, accompanied by Sweetened Tomato salsa" for £12.50, and a crap beer cost £4.00.

I've heard it said before: There's no such thing as a Socialist worker.

Which is quite funny.

 

[Furi]

I've heard it said before: There's no such thing as a Socialist worker.

Which is quite funny.

Strangely enough There was myself and another old(er) Lefty that were working the other 30 or so were students or "objectors of capitalist slavery" and there was also only myself and Lefty who thought the prices in this place were unreasonable, and that they were a bunch of annoying 'tards. (At least I know I don't play nice with other children)

We both found a nice little pub afterwards on heading back to the station, and solved the problems of the universe, in the way only 8+ pints of assorted real Ales and a Shepard's Pie can.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I really don't think so. If you watch the talk that RW gave the day before The Night of the Long Elevator Ride you will see that she was bound and determined to keep pressing on the topic of sexism within our community, regardless of whether it fit the topic of the forum. The derailment was already in progress; the elevator guy and RD's inflammatory comment merely drew more attention thereto.

Thanks for posting it. I hadn't seen it before. So, that was only hours before the encounter with Schrödinger's Elevator Man?

I wish I could say those [sexist] emails were rare, but they're not. I get a couple of them a month.

What percent, Rebecca? Two a month is not a torrent.

Also, if she's the only woman in a group, and someone suggests to "shut her up" that's appropriate use of a pronoun, not sexism. I have more nits to pick in her presentation, but my general reaction is that I just don't think it's appropriate to hijack atheism to push feminism. Even though I consider myself a feminist (by the dictionary definition: I support equal rights for women) we need to be disciplined about avoiding these kinds of derails.

I'm a fan of the approach of Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's absolutely thrilled to be admired for his work while his race ignored. Would he join or originate a group called "skepblacks?" I doubt it. Tyson has class.

 

[bedlin88]

I still think it's quite suspicious the elevator guy, if he exists, hasn't come forward. Certainly I wouldn't be surprised if a publicity seeker as driven as RW would make up such an encounter to enhance her views and attain more attention. Have any of her opponents asked her to describe this guy and asked about the time it took place? Talked to others who attended?

Well think about it, knowing how he would be attacked and demonized if he did come forward is it really any wonder he hasn't? If it was me I think I'd choose a quite life rather then to become a pin cushion for RW and some of her more rabid fans.

 

[qwints]

I'm a fan of the approach of Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's absolutely thrilled to be admired for his work while his race ignored. Would he join or originate a group called "skepblacks?" I doubt it. Tyson has class.

I had an epiphany, a revelation… It was 1989. I had never before in my life—and I believe to this day that that was the the first such occasion ever—but I had never before in my life seen an interview with a black person on television for expertise that had nothing to do with being black, holding aside of course interviews with performers and musicians, or atheletes, I’m talking about experts, [an] intellect… The guy didn’t ask me, well how do black people feel about this plasma coming from the sun? What does your community feel about this?

 

[squealpiggy]

Strangely enough There was myself and another old(er) Lefty that were working the other 30 or so were students or "objectors of capitalist slavery" and there was also only myself and Lefty who thought the prices in this place were unreasonable, and that they were a bunch of annoying 'tards. (At least I know I don't play nice with other children)

We both found a nice little pub afterwards on heading back to the station, and solved the problems of the universe, in the way only 8+ pints of assorted real Ales and a Shepard's Pie can.

What city was it? Can't get real ale in Canada. One of the things I miss. I have a can of Abbots in the fridge but it's not the same.

Degrasse-Tyson was used as an example during a diversity seminar. You had to guess what job the people in the photographs did and they were varied in race. I immediately said "Oh that's Neil Degrasse-Tyson, he's a physicist".

They should have used his classic disco-pic.

 

[AdMan]

They should have used his classic disco-pic.

Ah yes. For those who haven't seen it:

http://www.geekquality.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Neil-College-1.jpg

 

[Daald]

Well think about it, knowing how he would be attacked and demonized if he did come forward is it really any wonder he hasn't? If it was me I think I'd choose a quite life rather then to become a pin cushion for RW and some of her more rabid fans.

If you think about it some more you will realize that most likely the person never thought twice about it after he was rejected. After all, do you stalk every woman that rejected you to make sure your approach didn't ignite a war in the skeptical community?