The Australian "custody sisters"

[joesixpack]

The court's written judgment setting out the reasons for returning the kids to Italy is online here. An interesting read - the judge is very critical both of the public campaign waged by the mother's family, and of the way he believes their views have influenced the children:

Thank you again katy-did.

So far the ONLY basis for opposition to the children's return to Italy is that they cried a lot at the airport. Sorry if I don't give children crying that much weight.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Might it also be the case that the children are illegally in Australia, and Australia is well within its rights to deport them?

 

[brodski]

Might it also be the case that the children are illegally in Australia, and Australia is well within its rights to deport them?

No. That forms no part of the court ruling, indeed the judge states that the proceedings in Italy may allow the girls to live in Australia.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I watched the video but didn't follow any of the rest the links, has anyone read about the circumstances in which this father was awarded custody? Was the process fair to the mother and the girls?

The mother took the children before there was a custody hearing. So, no the process was not fair to the children, in that it has yet to occur. It will now likely be unfair to the mother in that the husband has agreed not to press charges so she will be able to present her case without a criminal record, which is patently unfair.

It's your theory, and you brought it up twice. It would take mind reading to know why, but presumably either you like the idea or in your mind it's the exemplar of a bad reason to want to stay in Australia which ought to be overruled. Either seems weird to me.

It is weird to me that you think teenage girls do not have boyfriends. Or friends or other connections in a country they have lived in for two years.

The mother is responsible for their pain, not the father. That they don't see this is immaterial.

Question to those who support taking these kids away from their mother like this :

If a few years from now the adult girls come back into the spotlight and say "that was the worst thing that ever happened to me, being forced to live with my father was pure hell on Earth and the only thing that kept me going was the thought that the second I came of age I could jump on a flight and go straight back to my mother. Screw the courts and police for doing this to me, and screw my father too."

...what would your reaction to that be?

That it is too bad the mother forced the courts to side with the father. Frankly, if he is such an ass and the kids hated him so much she could have waited for the custody hearing and presented his many flaws at that time. The kids could have stated their clear preference and their preference would have been considered. But, instead, she decided to force the court into deciding between a concerned father and a manipulating kidnapper. She painted this picture and her true colors came out in bright fashion. Any damage to the kids is her fault.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Might it also be the case that the children are illegally in Australia, and Australia is well within its rights to deport them?

With an Australian parent they likely have the legal right to live in Australia. My Australian friend has Aussie passports for her American born kids.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Sorry, tell me where all your righteous indignation was when she decided to take the kids from their father? You didn't give a **** then, but somehow now he's an ass because he wants access to his kids. Do you have kids? Would you want them stripped away from you? I somehow doubt it.

I hadn't heard of any of this until this thread.

And if I were in his situation I'd move to Australia, concluding that who is right in the law is a hell of a lot less important than the happiness of the kids.

I'm less hung up on right and wrong than some, caring more about the outcome.

 

[joesixpack]

I hadn't heard of any of this until this thread.

And if I were in his situation I'd move to Australia, concluding that who is right in the law is a hell of a lot less important than the happiness of the kids.

I'm less hung up on right and wrong than some, caring more about the outcome.

So you're only concerned because the girls cried at the airport. The facts in the case be damned, you just don't like seeing kids cry.

Can you give me some rationale other than their tears why they should be left with a demonstrably unfit parent?

 

[TragicMonkey]

So you're only concerned because the girls cried at the airport. The facts in the case be damned, you just don't like seeing kids cry.

Can you give me some rationale other than their tears why they should be left with a demonstrably unfit parent?

No, I don't think I'm going to engage with you further. Your personal experience is rendering you somewhat irrational on this topic, and I find your repeated attempts to misrepresent what I've said to be as insulting as they are sad. I'm sorry you had a bad custody experience, but do not take it out on strangers on the internet.

 

[joesixpack]

No, I don't think I'm going to engage with you further. Your personal experience is rendering you somewhat irrational on this topic, and I find your repeated attempts to misrepresent what I've said to be as insulting as they are sad. I'm sorry you had a bad custody experience, but do not take it out on strangers on the internet.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as hostile and unfair. You're absolutely correct that it is an issue which is close to me (and a few of my friends as well).

Having said that, I would welcome any logical argument that would support your position. And if your position is NOT that they should be allowed to remain with their mother, please clarify it for me.

 

[BenBurch]

This mother did a hideous thing and should have her parental rights ended. The damage to those children is entirely her doing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So you're only concerned because the girls cried at the airport. The facts in the case be damned, you just don't like seeing kids cry.

Can you give me some rationale other than their tears why they should be left with a demonstrably unfit parent?

Don't you see fitness of parents is immaterial to the argument. They cried so therefor doing what made them cry is bad. It doesn't matter how horrible the mother is or how much she created the whole situation.

 

[joesixpack]

This mother did a hideous thing and should have her parental rights ended. The damage to those children is entirely her doing.

While agree that it was hideous, I would not go so far as to terminate all of the mother's parental rights (which I suppose really hinges on what is circumscribed by "parental rights"). I would certainly allow supervised visitation to continue from this point, and eventually allow unrestricted access as the children grow older and as she demonstrates an increasing understanding as to what good parenting is (based on a court appointed evaluator).

I am very opposed to cutting off contact with one parent except in cases of exceptional abuse (which the mother comes dangerously close to with her actions, I should add).

 

[TragicMonkey]

Don't you see fitness of parents is immaterial to the argument. They cried so therefor doing what made them cry is bad. It doesn't matter how horrible the mother is or how much she created the whole situation.

I'm waiting for this pile of straw to cone alive and join Dorothy on the way to the Emerald City.

 

[joesixpack]

Don't you see fitness of parents is immaterial to the argument. They cried so therefor doing what made them cry is bad. It doesn't matter how horrible the mother is or how much she created the whole situation.

What I see is people witnessing histrionic displays of emotion and having their critical thinking overwhelmed by their own emotional reaction to that display. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who oppose the children's return to their father don't actually have children themselves and have very little contact with children outside of short stints of babysitting for a niece or nephew.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm waiting for this pile of straw to cone alive and join Dorothy on the way to the Emerald City.

You don't. Own it. Look at how hard the judge spanked her in the report, and you don't care. A kid cried and that is it for you. The kidnapper wins by not only avoiding years in prison but by keeping the kids.

 

[joesixpack]

I'm waiting for this pile of straw to cone alive and join Dorothy on the way to the Emerald City.

I am honestly trying to understand what your argument actually is. You haven't been very clear. I'll admit to filling in the blanks myself, and perhaps unjustly. Please explain what you think would be best for the children and why. I certainly don't want to argue against a strawman or against someone with whom I agree.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What I see is people witnessing histrionic displays of emotion and having their critical thinking overwhelmed by their own emotional reaction to that display. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who oppose the children's return to their father don't actually have children themselves and have very little contact with children outside of short stints of babysitting for a niece or nephew.

Or say experience how going home from summer camp can cause teen girls to cry a lot.

 

[ehcks]

I hadn't heard of any of this until this thread.

And if I were in his situation I'd move to Australia, concluding that who is right in the law is a hell of a lot less important than the happiness of the kids.

I'm less hung up on right and wrong than some, caring more about the outcome.

So you'd tear yourself away from your home and family and resettle in another country, just to attempt to satisfy the whims of your ex-wife after she kidnapped your children? That seems fair and rational...

 

[ponderingturtle]

So you'd tear yourself away from your home and family and resettle in another country, just to attempt to satisfy the whims of your ex-wife after she kidnapped your children? That seems fair and rational...

Why limit yourself to ex wife, any kidnapper who successfully indoctrinates them should cause this I am sure.

 

[AlBell]

Sigh. I'll try again: it doesn't matter to the children which one, if either, is "good" or "bad". What matters to them is which one they want to be with. You may be the sort of person who would insist they be miserable because you have judged one parent worthy and the other "evil and horrible". I wouldn't. I'd leave the kids with whichever parent they wanted to stay with. Even if they pick the "bad" one.

Comedian: When I was 10yrs old my mom called me into the bedroom; mom: "Dad and I have agreed to divorce and want to know who you will choose to live with?"
me: "Dad".

Dad: "I don't want a divorce."

too soon?