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skyrider44 said:
No, I'm asking questions that apparently make you squirm because they address the issues of motivation and intent, and, yes, civility.

You haven't answered my questions. Why do what Mormons believe matter to you, especially inasmuch as you probably don't even believe in the existence of God? What drives what is often more than merely "discussion" about the LDS Church and its members, sometimes taking the form of mocking and denigration (not to mention the use of emotionally loaded words like "histrionics")?
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Does this mean you are about to calmly present your list of anachronisms from the BoM that have been demonstrated, by practical, empirical, real-world evidence attested to and provided by neutral sources, to have existed in the pre-Colombian Americas?

...or is this simply going to be a spot ad for MartyrCardTM ("Don't go preaching without it")
 
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skyrider44 said:
Your question is based on a debatable premise.
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Then offer up a proper debate! Write a counter claim, provide evidence to back up your claim, and be prepared to defend it against all arguments, both civil and non.

I look forward to it.
 
AdMan said:
I hold no particular animosity toward the LDS. I do not believe in God and I think religious belief can be dangerous, and I would be (and have been) as questioning and, yes, as mocking--because nonsense deserves to be mocked to be revealed as nonsense--in threads and to posters coming to this forum to preach nonsense from any other religion holding similarly silly beliefs.
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So by your "lights," mocking and denigrating the religious beliefs of another qualifies as enlightened, mature "discussion." Furthermore, legitimate skeptics are fully enfranchised to do just that--right?
 
Myriad said:
What other people find unacceptable is funding efforts to deny civil rights to gays, using the Boy Scouts as a platform to encourage religious hatred and exclusion, and generally allying with and supporting the current U.S. political factions dedicated to the proposition that the rich must get richer and the poor get poorer.
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This. A thousand times this.

Frankly, with all the meddling that LDS does in civil society I'm amazed they haven't been body slammed and pinned by the IRS yet. Their mucking about in Proposition 8 is a particularly sore point for Me, and if I had My druthers LDS would lose a million dollars for every cent of funding they put into that particular campaign.
 
skyrider44 said:
So by your "lights," mocking and denigrating the religious beliefs of another qualifies as enlightened, mature "discussion." Furthermore, legitimate skeptics are fully enfranchised to do just that--right?
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Is this your left-handed apology for the list of things you tried to claim atheists have to believe, in order to become atheists?
 
DragonLady said:
Then offer up a proper debate! Write a counter claim, provide evidence to back up your claim, and be prepared to defend it against all arguments, both civil and non.

I look forward to it.
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You made the charge; the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead, give it your best shot. You might begin by proving that Joseph Smith made his living as a money digger.
 
skyrider44 said:
So by your "lights," mocking and denigrating the religious beliefs of another qualifies as enlightened, mature "discussion." Furthermore, legitimate skeptics are fully enfranchised to do just that--right?
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No.

Mature discussion, I can handle. There are numerous threads in this forum where mature discussion between posters holding opposing viewpoints has taken place. But Janadele after starting this thread has refused to engage in any kind of actual discussion. She has preached to us, and, yes, that often deserves mocking, because she has no idea what this forum is about, and refuses to learn.

If you come to this forum and try to push or defend your religious beliefs, prepare to be challenged and be ready to defend them. If you'd rather not have your religious beliefs challenged, then simply avoid coming here.
 
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skyrider44 said:
You made the charge; the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead, give it your best shot. You might begin by proving that Joseph Smith made his living as a money digger.
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Looks like it's a thread reset.
 
You made the charge; the burden of proof is on you.
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Joseph Smith admitted himself to being a money digger. This is recorded in the History of the Church, volume 3 (1838-1839). Also recorded in the LDS publication, the Elder's Journal, vol. 1, num. 2, pp. 28-29, it reads as follows,
Question 10. Was not Jo Smith a money digger[?]
Answer. Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it. [1]
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http://www.mormonwiki.org/Joseph_Smith_and_money-digging

Whether or not he made a living at it is immaterial. He did it, and he charged money for it.

Your turn. Tell us about the steel, the horses, and the barley. Provide evidence which we will find acceptable.
 
Just to clarify, my question below was not a rhetorical one. Skyrider, since you seemed to want serious answers from us, and are looking for actual discussion, I'm genuinely curious what your reasoning (or the reasoning of the LDS Church) is on this.

Pup said:
That brings up a good question. Why are so many Mormons against gay marriage? Mormons themselves can still marry whoever they want. It's not like there's a limited number of weddings to go around, so gay couples will be using up some of the limited supply. If you think the couples will be punished by God, well, they have their free agency, after all.

Letting gay couples marry does no harm, and actually does good, by encouraging more stable couples, which not only creates more happiness but provides more potential two-parent homes for children who need adopted.

Why do some Mormons find it impossible to tolerate gay couples getting married, when it's none of their business and does them no harm?
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As I follow this topic, I am reminded of a very long and involved thread several years ago on the subject of reincarnation started by an interesting gentleman who used the name Charles Boden.

He came here spouting ouija board and reincarnation nonsense, and he even bragged to his friends at a reincarnation forum that he was going to go stir up some trouble at the JREF. Skyrider and Janadele would be well served to read his opening post available at the above link, and quoted in part below. Actually, it would be educational to read the entire thread.

I am aware that I will probably be torn to shreds here, but I came upon this forum thanks to a reference made by a member of Dr Carol Bowman's forum in a link I began there about the case of Jacqueline Pool, which has also been debated here on this forum (have tried to add the link to it but as a newcomer here this is still not yet possible).
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It is a fascinating study in strongly held paranormal, unsupported beliefs. It did not end well for Charles, as he alienated both JREF and his reincarnation forum members alike. His obsession with religion and the trappings of faith appeared to swallow him in the end. I felt badly for him, and thought that he never should have tackled the JREF as he did. He probably underestimated the strength of the skeptical minds of this group of non-believers, and generally the entire experience of meeting logical arguments seemed to overwhelm him.

I see so many parallels in the arguments being made by the LDS members here. It is very likely that it is just a bad idea to argue faith based beliefs or the paranormal with a group that really doesn't believe in the supernatural, and who have not merely fallen into this knowledge by happenstance, but in many cases by virtue of a painful journey out of an abyss. We are not waifs adrift in a sea of non belief waiting to be taken in by your beliefs; we have conquered something that gave us pain, and now we have the joy of realizing what life really is. We are able to think rationally for ourselves.

I have to agree that the purpose of this forum is for answering difficult questions with evidence and logical arguments. Religion just doesn't work that way, so many skeptics find religion and the paranormal to be unnecessary or irrelevant to our lives. We don't reject a god...we just don't believe in it. Why is this so hard to understand.
 
skyrider44 said:
I suppose this is as good a place as any to ask some questions, thus: If Joseph Smith was a con man/fraud/sexual deviant/crook/scoundrel. . .if his story about golden plates and translating them by looking into a hat is so absurd as to be laughable. . .if the Book of Mormon is a 19th century work riddled with anachronisms (and for which there is no archaeological evidence of any kind). . .if Joseph Smith and his followers used polygamy as a cover for having sex with young girls. . .if the Book of Abraham has nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham. . .if Brigham Young was a rabid racist. . .if, in sum, all of the warts that are a part of Mormon historicity are factually correct. . .

[...]
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Stop right there.

I don't understand what you expect from this place. Your frequent truculence is not helping your case.

This is the JREF forum. If you can't stand the heat, then get the he!! out of the kitchen.
 
skyrider44 said:
You made the charge; the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead, give it your best shot. You might begin by proving that Joseph Smith made his living as a money digger.
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Choosing deliberate dishonesty again. That must be all you have.

Anachronisms. Explain them. Try to be honest.
 
skyrider44 said:
You believe, therefore, that destroying people's faith is commendable--because that, in essence, is what you're saying.

You suppose that you are engaged in a crusade to make the world a better place. I am not at all sure that destroying humankind's faith is a credible way to achieve that goal. Moreover, I'm virtually certain that you can't prove it.
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Try to be honest for a change. Explain the anachronisms. What is the definition of "Negro"? The LDS blatant hatred towards gays?
 
skyrider44 said:
You believe, therefore, that destroying people's faith is commendable--because that, in essence, is what you're saying.

In "Atheism Has A Suicide Problem"...

<snip>
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Completely off-topic. You asked the questions. Why don't you try to address the responses honestly rather than bringing in irrelevant commentary?
 
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