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$9/h minimum wage

Why not go all out and raise the minimum to $15 or whatever has been answered Kaosium. Stop bringing it up as if it hasn't been addressed.

I'll look at your other comments later.
 
OK, so going back to the cited studies in this obtuse post,


Raising minimum wage won't lower povertyHe's a paid shill. I'm not impressed.

You don't have to be, I was referencing the papers in that piece, the ones linked to, I included it so you would know where they came from.

You've been posting material from paid shills too, you often do on politics and economics. You're aware of that I assume?

I just evaluate what they have to say regardless of where it comes from, that works for me.


Minimum Wages and Poverty: Will a $9.50 Federal Minimum Wage Really Help the Working Poor?
Are they serious? The poor don't need a raise, they won't benefit from it? :boggled: I'll try to read it later.

OK


Minimum Wages and EmploymentThis was referred to in one of the links I posted. The authors admit their findings were not significant yet they use them to draw a conclusion? I'll also take a closer look later at the studies that did show a significant negative effect on employment.

Perhaps you should have read the paper itself and not just taken the word of the 'paid shill' from the opposing EPI that has been fighting tooth and nail with each other for decades? :p

As I recall it the seasonal findings were not significant, but the overall ones were.


MINIMUM WAGES AND EMPLOYMENT: A REVIEW OF EVIDENCE FROM THE NEW MINIMUM WAGE RESEARCH Same authors as the above link.The language they use "market distortions" suggests a Libertarian leaning ideology, but at least this paper is a scientific paper and not a think tank creation.

'"market distortions" Suggests a libertarian-leaning ideology?' What does that mean? :)

Do you suppose there is a credible school of economics which doesn't take into account that there's not a perfect marketplace and there's plenty of factors that could corrupt it such as monopolies? Would you really want to spend any time on one that pretended differently?

Actually, where does that idea come from? I've never heard that 'market distortion' suggested a political ideology.

I do know one thing that sets my skepti-sense tingling and that's language like 'debunk' for things like opportunity cost, the Quantity Theory of Money, and right now anyone arguing the minimum wage who cannot tell me why going to $9.00/hour would be fine but cannot offer a rationale for not going to $12.00 hour, for example the likely effects were it to happen.

I conclude from the paper that while their conclusion is minimum wage increases might decrease job numbers, they did not find a particularly significant effect. IOW, a relatively few people may lose a job opportunity but the benefits might be a net positive for other reasons.

The last two papers are from the National Bureau of Economic ResearchAnother front group with a specific agenda.

:jaw-dropp

History of the NBER said:
The NBER is the nation's leading nonprofit economic research organization. Twenty-two Nobel Prize winners in Economics and thirteen past chairs of the President's Council of Economic Advisers have been researchers at the NBER. The more than 1,100 professors of economics and business now teaching at colleges and universities in North America who are NBER researchers are the leading scholars in their fields. These Bureau associates concentrate on four types of empirical research: developing new statistical measurements, estimating quantitative models of economic behavior, assessing the economic effects of public policies, and projecting the effects of alternative policy proposals.

I have just erased five comments because I've always liked you, from the very beginning going through the Amanda Knox thread for the first time, when I figured she was probably be guilty (I found PMF first). I will leave it at this: what you have just said on the basis of that very dubious website is laughable!

Does this surprise you? Or his (rather extensive!) list here? Or how about this guy? Do you know who he is? There was a thread on him recently.

I myself posted a link to a webpage that was titled, "Raise the Minimum Wage". The difference, they weren't attempting to hide their position. There was no attempt to label any of the science they posted as coming from some front group called a 'think tank'.

My suggestion is to stay away from the kooky websites, starting with 'sourcewatch.' If you want to learn something about economics outside dogmatic drivel, spend more time at NBER.


I'll look at this claim in the next post.


I do hope you're doing alright, you have me kinda worried at this point. :(
 
Why not go all out and raise the minimum to $15 or whatever has been answered Kaosium. Stop bringing it up as if it hasn't been addressed.

I've seen nothing that even remotely addresses it outside the 'laffer curve' comment, which means nothing. I also know why you cannot answer it, that's because there isn't one that doesn't imperil the very contention that's being made. ;)

I'll look at your other comments later.

Fair enough.
 
You know what, I noticed this 'sourcewatch' was based in Madison WI, did some looking around. I'd like to say I heard of this place, but despite living in Madison most of my life I can't say that. I looked it up on google maps, and here it is. Bizzarrely enough, as of about four years ago I was living within about a block of this place, over on W. Johnson. I'd go by it just about every day. Still don't know anything about it, never heard of it despite it being here twenty years.

However there is something I do know something about, and it's a fellow by the name of I.F. Stone. They received an award named after him, he's certainly an interesting character. He was also a real life communist, and not just a communist, but a Stalinist. Actually more than a mere Stalinist, an operative for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union, they had an organization known as the KGB that he worked for. He was also a propagandist and a disinformation agent. He wrote a book with 'conspiracy theories' that were wartime enemy propaganda, it blamed the United States and Korea for conspiring to attack North Korea, some people believed him, most knew better. When they had the Stalinist show trials most were unwilling to deny the truth, not IF Stone, he couldn't condemn them, maybe because he was getting paid at the time by the KGB.

Two of those links are from The New Republic and Harvard School of Journalism, not exactly 'right-wing' sites, and in the latter case a rather embarrassing case being as they'd just honored him by naming an award for journalism for him a year before. For the longest time, and still to this day for old Stalinist diehard publications like The Nation, (I don't think they got paid though, they parroted Stalinist propaganda for free) there was an effort to pretend it all wasn't true, or some or most wasn't true, or it could be minimized and rationalized because 'good ol' Izzy' was well beloved amongst the 'radical left' because he said things they liked, even if they weren't actually true. I especially like those who said things like it was perfectly OK as he was aiding a wartime ally, 'cept of course the United States wasn't at war with anyone in the late thirties. I did not exactly find it terribly surprising when the Communist Party of Wisconsin had your 'Sourcewatch' sister-site 'PRWatch' prominently listed on their links next to publications people have actually heard of.

I must say I cannot think of anything quite as ironic as claiming that a well-respected near-century-old institution (founded by Progressive economists BTW) that is a storehouse of information and data from economists of all schools of thought throughout the ages must be a 'front group' with a 'specific agenda' because an organization that just accepted an award named for a Stalinist spy, liar and propagandist said so. That's OK though, anyone's welcome to be a communist, or a dupe, and can just pretend like (some) of the others it isn't actually true just because they can lie about it, but the reason that threw me for such a loop and I got rude is that it's ridiculous if you've any knowledge of the field, and even if one is learning it just takes a few minutes poking around to realize you're at a free Google of economic papers, and if it is true that those people are/were the only ones funding it those years you've seen an example of intellectual integrity that one will never find amongst those who accept the legacy of propagandists for the worst human rights abuses and genocide ever recorded under the pretense that others are spreading 'disinfo' and spin.
 
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By that counter argument, I'm to conclude that rising the minimum wage has no great impact on the national economy, as the jobs are done by people with no skills, resulting in no great benefit for the country.

So why not pay them more? If that results in fewer jobs at that level, then it's a no-loss situation.

Why would a price floor that affects a small portion of that market have a major impact on the aggregate economy?

It will have little to no impact on most people. However, it will have quite the impact on those in the unskilled labor pool. As is always the case with rent seeking in labor markets, some labor will enjoy higher wages but it will be at the expense of other labor (profits and consumers will pick up whatever part of the tab isn't paid by poor labor) that is pushed out of the market.

And why would you want fewer jobs at that level? I could understand it if you said it would be great if unskilled labor developed new skills that allowed them to demand higher wages, but you didn't and aren't, you want an increased price floor to exclude some labor from getting jobs at all. Just like with labor in poor countries that liberals screech take their jerbs by accepting "slave wages", it is very perplexing that liberals claim to champion the poor yet seem to think that if people are too poor and/or unskilled to demand high wages they should not be allowed to have jobs at all.
 
@ Kaosium

Sourcewatch has been around for many decades. They are a part of the Center for Media and Democracy.

About:
The Center for Media and Democracy (CMD) is a non-profit investigative reporting group. Our reporting and analysis focus on exposing corporate spin and government propaganda. We publish PRWatch, SourceWatch, and BanksterUSA.

Our newest investigative site is ALECexposed.org. Our ongoing investigation of ALEC -- the corporations bankrolling its operations and "scholarships" for legislators to attend posh resorts where corporate lobbyists and elected officials vote behind closed doors on "model" legislation to change Americans' rights -- has won significant awards for investigative journalism.

As a threat to the right wing disinformation, of course they've been attacked as some liberal disinfo. There's a PAID ad site that pops up on Google when you search for Sourcewatch which claims to have incriminating evidence against Sourcewatch. It's full of all kinds of crap.

Sourcewatch reports funding sources, whose really behind front groups and fake news.

If you're a right winger then falsely dismiss away, I don't care. But it you are interested in media literacy, you'll find it's a very useful and reliable website.
 
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... Still don't know anything about it, never heard of it despite it being here twenty years.
It's a web source. I have no idea what their brick and mortar operation is.

... However there is something I do know something about, and it's a fellow by the name of I.F. Stone. They received an award named after him, he's certainly an interesting character. He was also a real life communist, and not just a communist, but a Stalinist. Actually more than a mere Stalinist, an operative for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union, they had an organization known as the KGB that he worked for. He was also a propagandist and a disinformation agent. He wrote a book with 'conspiracy theories' that were wartime enemy propaganda, it blamed the United States and Korea for conspiring to attack North Korea, some people believed him, most knew better. When they had the Stalinist show trials most were unwilling to deny the truth, not IF Stone, he couldn't condemn them, maybe because he was getting paid at the time by the KGB.

Two of those links are from The New Republic and Harvard School of Journalism, not exactly 'right-wing' sites, and in the latter case a rather embarrassing case being as they'd just honored him by naming an award for journalism for him a year before. For the longest time, and still to this day for old Stalinist diehard publications like The Nation,
Oh brother. You think The Nation is a Stalinist commie publication? :rolleyes:


...(I don't think they got paid though, they parroted Stalinist propaganda for free) there was an effort to pretend it all wasn't true, or some or most wasn't true, or it could be minimized and rationalized because 'good ol' Izzy' was well beloved amongst the 'radical left' because he said things they liked, even if they weren't actually true. I especially like those who said things like it was perfectly OK as he was aiding a wartime ally, 'cept of course the United States wasn't at war with anyone in the late thirties. I did not exactly find it terribly surprising when the Communist Party of Wisconsin had your 'Sourcewatch' sister-site 'PRWatch' prominently listed on their links next to publications people have actually heard of.

I must say I cannot think of anything quite as ironic as claiming that a well-respected near-century-old institution (founded by Progressive economists BTW) that is a storehouse of information and data from economists of all schools of thought throughout the ages must be a 'front group' with a 'specific agenda' because an organization that just accepted an award named for a Stalinist spy, liar and propagandist said so. That's OK though, anyone's welcome to be a communist, or a dupe, and can just pretend like (some) of the others it isn't actually true just because they can lie about it, but the reason that threw me for such a loop and I got rude is that it's ridiculous if you've any knowledge of the field, and even if one is learning it just takes a few minutes poking around to realize you're at a free Google of economic papers, and if it is true that those people are/were the only ones funding it those years you've seen an example of intellectual integrity that one will never find amongst those who accept the legacy of propagandists for the worst human rights abuses and genocide ever recorded under the pretense that others are spreading 'disinfo' and spin.
This is just too nutty to reply to. I'm sorry but in case you missed it, McCarthyism has been replaced with the War on Terror. You should really update this paranoia.
 
It's a web source. I have no idea what their brick and mortar operation is.

Oh brother. You think The Nation is a Stalinist commie publication? :rolleyes:

You were unaware that it was? No amount of eye-rolling will change history.

This is just too nutty to reply to. I'm sorry but in case you missed it, McCarthyism has been replaced with the War on Terror. You should really update this paranoia.

What if it had been the 'Joseph Goebbels' award? Or for that matter the Karl Rove award?

You claimed that the NBER was a 'front organization' with an 'agenda' because an organization who accepted an award named for a 'journalist' who was actually a paid propagandist for a mass-murdering regime infamous for its lies posted some information on a website.
 
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@ Kaosium

Sourcewatch has been around for many decades. They are a part of the Center for Media and Democracy.

About:

As a threat to the right wing disinformation, of course they've been attacked as some liberal disinfo. There's a PAID ad site that pops up on Google when you search for Sourcewatch which claims to have incriminating evidence against Sourcewatch. It's full of all kinds of crap.

Sourcewatch reports funding sources, whose really behind front groups and fake news.

If you're a right winger then falsely dismiss away, I don't care. But it you are interested in media literacy, you'll find it's a very useful and reliable website.

I have a better idea, why not evaluate them on the basis of their actual claim and you might get a better idea of whether its a 'useful or reliable website?' However thinking about it, I wonder if the fault here is more yours than theirs? For example, here's some information which isn't compatible with NBER being a 'front organization with an agenda:'

Directors by University Appointment

George Akerlof, University of California at Berkeley
Jagdish Bhagwati, Columbia University
Ray C. Fair, Yale University
Michael J. Brennan, University of California at Los Angeles
Glen G. Cain, University of Wisconsin
Franklin Fisher, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Saul H. Hymans, University of Michigan
Marjorie B. McElroy, Duke University
Joel Mokyr, Northwestern University
Andrew Postlewaite, University of Pennsylvania
Uwe E. Reinhardt, Princeton
Nathan Rosenberg, Stanford University
Craig Swan, University of Minnesota
David B. Yoffie, Harvard University
Arnold Zellner, University of Chicago


You've probably heard of some of those places, they're not exactly bastions of right-wing propaganda. Did you take that information into account before you made your dubious accusation? The 'evidence' of the funding Sourcewatch posted was unsourced and uncorroborated and also not definitive. Merely because a foundation named for James Olin (never heard of the other ones outside Scaife) funded them doesn't mean that it drives any agenda. For one thing Olin himself is dead, and even if his foundation is still more receptive to conservative causes that doesn't mean the NBER itself is a conservative 'front group with an agenda', it may very well be that a conservative foundation might very well want NBER to be a research foundation dedicated to integrity in the field of economics.

As an example, I noted that one of the sources of funding for Sourcewatch is a Rockerfeller foundation (or whatever) grant. Rockerfeller, of course, was about as canny a capitalist as there ever was, some might even say unprincipled and merciless in that regard. However that doesn't mean that they're a 'right-wing' foundation, as a matter of fact they're actually known as being rather left wing! The scourge of the John Birch society!

That doesn't mean everything or something Sourcewatch is posting is propaganda either though, There's a better way to evaluate their 'reliability' and that's to evaluate their claims! You can do that, by looking at the NBER and deciding for yourself whether it's a 'front group' with an 'agenda' and if you had done that you'd find out just how ludicrous it is to think that all the non-republican and non-rightwing economists and institutions also associated with them would be part of a 'front group' with some right-wing agenda. Another thing would be to decide for yourself that even if they did whether or not the information contained there is inaccurate. I've posted links from The Nation and recently in the Shambler thread from Marxists.org, that's because I knew that the information contained there (in the later case something from Hume) was accurate and it just so happened to be the first website that popped up when I went looking for that excerpt.


I also once had a subscription to the Nation along with other known left-wing publications. I recall especially enjoying reading Christopher Hitchens, Alexander Cockburn, Katha Pollit and David Corn, however that doesn't mean I believed everything they said though, I prefer to evaluate sources through other means, thinking for myself.

Their claim regarding the NBER reflects poorly on them or perhaps on you for taking those disparate pieces of information they posted and ignoring the rest and then making the absurd accusation that you did. One can establish that for oneself by evaluating their information and not letting websites do their thinking for them. :)
 
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There are various different benefits, but if you have been working before then £51.85 per week for those aged 16-24, and £65.45 for those aged over 25.

So the equivalent of 10.5 hours work at the minimum wage before you start to earn more than just benefits. The problem is when you start to factor in being on one benefit seems to attract more benefits and being in work results in travel and child care costs. So then things can even out and mean it is not worth going to work.


Sorry but not really true. the benefits paid to the unemployed are massively outweighed by those paid to workers in the form of tax credits. The real scroungers are the businesses who are exploiting the benefit system to avoid paying a living wage.
 
Why not go all out and raise the minimum to $15 or whatever has been answered Kaosium. Stop bringing it up as if it hasn't been addressed.

I'll look at your other comments later.

Incidentally, the reason I think it's especially germane to consider 'why not $12.00' is from 2007 to today the minimum wage has been increased from 5.15 to $7.25, and the proposal is to increase it again to $9.00/hour by 2015 (IIRC) which would be an increase of roughly 75% in the space of eight years.

Thus from this moment an increase of 75% would be roughly an increase to 13.00/hour. If it's being argued that there will be minimal effects from the increase to $9.00/hour and there has been no or a minimal effect on unemployment from the last recent increase, wouldn't an increase to $12.00/hour be even more beneficial under the assumption being made by some that an increase will (almost) certainly be a boon to the poor?

That's why that argument must be engaged and not dismissed, like some economists and organizations are doing. I think instead it's quite possible if not probable that the Federal increase in '07 is inhibiting employment (and the economic recovery to a degree) already, and that a further one at this juncture may very well exacerbate this problem. Others seem to think it impossible that our current sustained unemployment might have something to do with that '07 increase and that a further one wouldn't make it worse which is (probably) why they're not very interested in engaging the $12.00/hour argument: it brings into question the assumptions being made now by some.
 
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Incidentally, the reason I think it's especially germane to consider 'why not $12.00' is from 2007 to today the minimum wage has been increased from 5.15 to $7.25, and the proposal is to increase it again to $9.00/hour by 2015 (IIRC) which would be an increase of roughly 75% in the space of eight years.

Thus from this moment an increase of 75% would be roughly an increase to 13.00/hour. If it's being argued that there will be minimal effects from the increase to $9.00/hour and there has been no or a minimal effect on unemployment from the last recent increase, wouldn't an increase to $12.00/hour be even more beneficial under the assumption being made by some that an increase will (almost) certainly be a boon to the poor?

That's why that argument must be engaged and not dismissed, like some economists and organizations are doing. I think instead it's quite possible if not probable that the Federal increase in '07 is inhibiting employment (and the economic recovery to a degree) already, and that a further one at this juncture may very well exacerbate this problem. Others seem to think it impossible that our current sustained unemployment might have something to do with that '07 increase and that a further one wouldn't make it worse which is (probably) why they're not very interested in engaging the $12.00/hour argument: it brings into question the assumptions being made now by some.

Greg Mankiw would like an explanation for how they arrived at $9.00 as well, link.
 
So Conservatives really have no evidence that raising the minimum wage adversely affects the economy and only try to find ways to dismiss the evidence that it has a positive effect.

No wonder the GOP is the party of Creationism.
 
Raising minimum wage doesn't get anyone out of poverty.

And we don't know for sure if the endgame affect is to increase jobs due to more spending, or to decrease jobs due to layoffs and cancelling of new hiring.

But we DO know that minimum wage has fallen over the last 20 years when factored with inflation, so that is one good reason to raise it.
 
So Conservatives really have no evidence that raising the minimum wage adversely affects the economy and only try to find ways to dismiss the evidence that it has a positive effect.

No wonder the GOP is the party of Creationism.

No, there is evidence that raising the minimum wage does reduce employment.
 

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