Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

They certainly did not delete anything to screw with Amanda's mind or keep her off balance. The content of Lumumba's text threw them off balance, which is why it had to go. It jarred with their theory, constructed in large part from the examination and misinterpretation of cell phone records.

Going into the evening they seem to have had this:
For various reasons, Amanda was in the frame (key holder, odd behaviour, bathmat etc.)
She had exchahged texts with Lumumba. He was pinged near the apartment and she had switched off her phone. He had called her at the questura on the night of 02 Nov and met her on the church steps on the morning of 05 Nov. He was black. He knew Meredith. And, I now believe, in 40 hours of questioning (or whatever it was) she had failed to mention that she had gone out or the exchange of texts which, by the night of the 5th she had all but completely forgotten (see her testimony).

So, they set it all up. Raffaele confirmed what they already knew and then they got to look at her phone with both its messages. 'See you later' was the jackpot, 'bar closed, don't come' was anomalous. As that's what it said, they stuck it in, puzzled, then retired into a huddle and came up with the new, improved version at 5.45.

Well, there goes my theory that the police might have had the body of the text messages before the interview. Still it doesn't explain my idea about Amanda's perceived location via the cell tower.

 

[RandyN]

Sorry this may have already been answered but from my notes I gathered the following...

20:18 SMS from PL connects at Via Del Aquila5-Torre Del Acquedotto Sector 3
*(six calls from RS connected to above from RS on 2 Nov2007)

20:35 AK responds to PL Via Berardi Sector 7
** ( 20:40 Jouana Popovick arrives at RS and speaks w/Amanda)

* This information was originally put together to prove that both cell towers served RS flat...but I suppose you can assume the police knew about these calls, towers, etc...

** Prosecution tried to maintain that Knox replied to PL from somewhere other than RS flat. I am not sure the defense ever got this deep into the towers information...

ETA...from same note...22:13 call from MK phone to her bank connected to tower 30064. A tower impossible to reach from the cottage (apparently)...meaningless but in my notes so I thought Id toss it in here.

 

[anglolawyer]

The Italians seem to be sloppy with lots of details. Massei gets cell towers wrong according to some stuff I've read. Maybe he looked at his notes and misread 18 for 10.



I gave you something about the days of interviews preceding the interrogation that indicated she was asked over and over what they did that night. She would have mentioned the incoming text over and over. There has never been any dispute over the fact of the text or the contents except whether it said closed or slow. Except for Matteini, a difference without distinction.

They probably started that night with the same questions and then sprung the text on her. All along the only text of meaningful dispute was hers and what it meant.

If you read the testimony and other material with that in mind it seems clearly to be referencing the return text. They found the message (the response) which they then asked about and she didn't remember sending. Why doesn't anyone reference the incoming message in this context more directly.

Patrick sent you a text is that correct?

Yes.

What did it say?

Don't come to work.

How could you have forgotten that?

I didn't, I had told the police about it for days.

When they showed you the actual text did they ask about a reply?

They didn't show me the text because I erase all unimportant texts.



She had told them for days about getting out of work. Do you really believe they never quizzed them about the murder night even though her people say they did?

ETA - This statement from FOA

The police questioned Amanda and Raffaele repeatedly as witnesses over the next few days. Both gave the same account of their activities and whereabouts. But on the night of November 5-6, the two were pulled into separate rooms and subjected to more aggressive interrogations. Under intense pressure, they changed their accounts.

Please, Anglo at least admit that in remembering the night it is a giant stretch to claim she forgot she was supposed to work but had received the text.

One question Grinder, before I answer. Did you just quote trial testimony above, or did you make that up? If the former you will save me some time if you reference it for me.

 

[acbytesla]

Sorry this may have already been answered but from my notes I gathered the following...

20:18 SMS from PL connects at Via Del Aquila5-Torre Del Acquedotto Sector 3
*(six calls from RS connected to above from RS on 2 Nov2007)

20:35 AK responds to PL Via Berardi Sector 7
** ( 20:40 Jouana Popovick arrives at RS and speaks w/Amanda)

* This information was originally put together to prove that both cell towers served RS flat...but I suppose you can assume the police knew about these calls, towers, etc...

** Prosecution tried to maintain that Knox replied to PL from somewhere other than RS flat. I am not sure the defense ever got this deep into the towers information...

ETA...from same note...22:13 call from MK phone to her bank connected to tower 30064. A tower impossible to reach from the cottage (apparently)...meaningless but in my notes so I thought Id toss it in here.

WOW, thanks for blowing the hell out of my theory. But then again I was following Massei. I guess that is what happens when you follow a moron. Good job Randy.

I'm still looking for a cell tower map locations and sectors, so if you find one, please post it.

 

[anglolawyer]

WOW, thanks for blowing the hell out of my theory. But then again I was following Massei. I guess that is what happens when you follow a moron. Good job Randy.

I'm still looking for a cell tower map locations and sectors, so if you find one, please post it.

AC - you should get in touch with geebee2 at IA. He has looked closely at all this stuff. So has Dan O. I think. Once you techies have figured everything out, come back and let us know.

 

[acbytesla]

AC - you should get in touch with geebee2 at IA. He has looked closely at all this stuff. So has Dan O. I think. Once you techies have figured everything out, come back and let us know.

Will do, that is the problem looking at all of this is that I only have small pieces of the puzzle. After what Randy just pointed out, Massei's decision only makes me more angry.

I've been wanting to orient myself for a long time help me make sense of what I've read. Google earth helped a lot. I've put pins in all the locations that I've read so far. Quite a hillside that this all took place. It bothers me that I can't find the basketball court in the satellite imagery. I think I know approximately where it is, but as I said, I can't see it.

Funny, looking at this makes it less of an abstraction.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry this may have already been answered but from my notes I gathered the following...

20:18 SMS from PL connects at Via Del Aquila5-Torre Del Acquedotto Sector 3
*(six calls from RS connected to above from RS on 2 Nov2007)

20:35 AK responds to PL Via Berardi Sector 7
** ( 20:40 Jouana Popovick arrives at RS and speaks w/Amanda)

* This information was originally put together to prove that both cell towers served RS flat...but I suppose you can assume the police knew about these calls, towers, etc...

** Prosecution tried to maintain that Knox replied to PL from somewhere other than RS flat. I am not sure the defense ever got this deep into the towers information...

ETA...from same note...22:13 call from MK phone to her bank connected to tower 30064. A tower impossible to reach from the cottage (apparently)...meaningless but in my notes so I thought Id toss it in here.

WOW, thanks for blowing the hell out of my theory. But then again I was following Massei. I guess that is what happens when you follow a moron. Good job Randy.

I'm still looking for a cell tower map locations and sectors, so if you find one, please post it.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Raffaele's appeal indicates that this tower had not connected to Meredith's cottage before yet I believe it is Matteini that points out that records indicate Meredith's phones have connected to this tower before. She said something along the lines of do we assume that Meredith went out every time this connection took place. My understanding is the connection from this tower to the cottage is a weak one, the connection from a location between the cottage and where the phones were disposed of, a very strong one. I believe Raffaele's appeal is not entirely accurate on this point.

 

[Grinder]

Anglo,

My apologies. I should have made it more clear that the dialog was from the Book of Grinder. I thought it would be obvious but I should have made it clear.

The other stuff in italics about the repeated questioning of A & R about what they did was as noted from FOA. Could you address that aspect i.e. that they had described what they did that night which should have included hearing from Patrick.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK, I pointed out Mignini's actions to expand upon something that I brought to your attention and to which you have yet to respond. It is within the universe of possibilities that the charges against PM Mignini are without merit. Likewise, it is possible that Douglas Preston's impressions of him are wrong. However, Mr. Mignini is himself responsible for what he says and whom he charges. IMO there is enough information in his words and actions to form an opinion of how he executes his official duties. I have no idea why you would make the statement that you did in your last sentence, although I would like to hear the identities of these other people. I also would be interested in hearing your opinion of the merits of Mignini's case against Raffaele.

Randy, There is a list of people or organizations charged by Mignini at IA. I asked CoulsdonUK for his/her opinion of one or two of them, such as the one brought against Joe Cottonwood (who obviously is not a friend of Amanda's), but without a response.

Halides1

Clearly you believe Mignini should have been removed from office in relation to this case and MOF. Nonetheless the simple fact is that he has not been charged with any offences relating to the Meredith Kercher case and as you are aware but no doubt do not accept the MOF case against Mignini was recently been nullified; if the Supreme Court confirm Raffaele and Amanda's acquittal I am sure they would start proceedings against Mignini and others.

You may believe Mignini and others operate with impunity within Italy, maybe you'll find this article of interest http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-cia-rendition-abu-omar .

Yes Mignini has sued a number of people, I have no idea what current status is of any of the cases listed in the IA post. However, my opinion is in the absence of any charges leading to a conviction if any individual believes they have been defamed it is up to them to decide whether they sue, given that Mignini is a magistrate his response is hardly surprising.

PMF .org/.net not sure which mentioned the name Michele Giuttari's as someone else likely to sue Raffaele, it is very early days and I am sure others will start proceedings against Raffaele.

Post on PMF http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/2013/02/16/846251-mignini-querela-sollecito.shtml

 

[RoseMontague]

Will do, that is the problem looking at all of this is that I only have small pieces of the puzzle. After what Randy just pointed out, Massei's decision only makes me more angry.

I've been wanting to orient myself for a long time help me make sense of what I've read. Google earth helped a lot. I've put pins in all the locations that I've read so far. Quite a hillside that this all took place. It bothers me that I can't find the basketball court in the satellite imagery. I think I know approximately where it is, but as I said, I can't see it.

Funny, looking at this makes it less of an abstraction.

I don't recall looking for it, so I did. Is this it? ETA...looks like a circle in the middle like a jump circle, perhaps?

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglo,

My apologies. I should have made it more clear that the dialog was from the Book of Grinder. I thought it would be obvious but I should have made it clear.

The other stuff in italics about the repeated questioning of A & R about what they did was as noted from FOA. Could you address that aspect i.e. that they had described what they did that night which should have included hearing from Patrick.

Thanks for clarifying. I addressed this above - see point 1 in this post. I am betting a yacht to a condo there is no evidence to show the texts were discussed before the 5th. Amanda described what she did on the night of the 1st in her email of the 4th and managed the whole thing in a single sentence. You are expecting them to assign significance to something entirely inconsequential from their perspective as mere witnesses.

 

[RoseMontague]

The backboard is in shadow, but I believe you can make it out in this blow-up. I could be wrong. It appears you can see the entrance(driveway) to the cottage from there, but not the cottage itself.

 

[acbytesla]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Raffaele's appeal indicates that this tower had not connected to Meredith's cottage before yet I believe it is Matteini that points out that records indicate Meredith's phones have connected to this tower before. She said something along the lines of do we assume that Meredith went out every time this connection took place. My understanding is the connection from this tower to the cottage is a weak one, the connection from a location between the cottage and where the phones were disposed of, a very strong one. I believe Raffaele's appeal is not entirely accurate on this point.

Well Rose, I can't help but wonder if this is the crux of the Police investigation. Amanda told the police that she was at Raffaele's place when she received this text. But according to Massei, the cell phone tower pinpoints her location more in the vicinity of Le Chic...basically on the route to Le Chic. I am trying to locate the cell phone towers and the directions of their antennas to determine how this cell phone tower connected to her phone to deliver Patrik's SMS message. I have had a career in the data communications field although cell phone communications is not my primary field of endeavour. But I know that cell phone towers operate much like other radio communications.

I believe I have located where a few of the cell towers (not definitive) are located and am trying to create a map of the area.

My hypothesis is that the police thought it was impossible for an SMS message to be delivered to Raffaele's home (Corso Garibaldi 30) and this is one of the reasons they were convinced that Amanda was lying. But I have a strong belief that while the tower antenna used to deliver the SMS message was not typical(Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3), it was still within the realm of possibility because I believe that Amanda definitely was at Raffaele's flat given that Amanda's return text 17 minutes laters used a cell phone tower that connected frequently to Raffaele's home. (Via Berardi area 7)

Any help at all with information is appreciated. I am creating a map of Perugia with all the pertinent locations. I have an idea where some of the cell phone towers are but I am looking for an actual Cell tower antenna map.

 

[acbytesla]

The backboard is in shadow, but I believe you can make it out in this blow-up. I could be wrong. It appears you can see the entrance(driveway) to the cottage from there, but not the cottage itself.

Thanks Rose, I thought it was there somewhere. But I can't see the hoop or a layout of the court on the pavement. Clearly, it isn't a full basketball court.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well Rose, I can't help but wonder if this is the crux of the Police investigation. Amanda told the police that she was at Raffaele's place when she received this text. But according to Massei, the cell phone tower pinpoints her location more in the vicinity of Le Chic...basically on the route to Le Chic. I am trying to locate the cell phone towers and the directions of their antennas to determine how this cell phone tower connected to her phone to deliver Patrik's SMS message. I have had a career in the data communications field although cell phone communications is not my primary field of endeavour. But I know that cell phone towers operate much like other radio communications.

I believe I have located where a few of the cell towers (not definitive) are located and am trying to create a map of the area.

My hypothesis is that the police thought it was impossible for an SMS message to be delivered to Raffaele's home (Corso Garibaldi 30) and this is one of the reasons they were convinced that Amanda was lying. But I have a strong belief that while the tower antenna used to deliver the SMS message was not typical(Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3), it was still within the realm of possibility because I believe that Amanda definitely was at Raffaele's flat given that Amanda's return text 17 minutes laters used a cell phone tower that connected frequently to Raffaele's home. (Via Berardi area 7)

Any help at all with information is appreciated. I am creating a map of Perugia with all the pertinent locations. I have an idea where some of the cell phone towers are but I am looking for an actual Cell tower antenna map.

I am going through the evidence step by step on Facebook and it just happens I have the cell phone information handy from Raffaele's appeal. There is a big technical difference between the prosecution expert and the defense expert, imo. I do believe the appeal is not quite accurate on the call in question, however. Attached. (katy_did translation)

 

[Grinder]

Halides1
Clearly you believe Mignini should have been removed from office in relation to this case and MOF. Nonetheless the simple fact is that he has not been charged with any offences relating to the Meredith Kercher case and as you are aware but no doubt do not accept the MOF case against Mignini was recently been nullified; if the Supreme Court confirm Raffaele and Amanda's acquittal I am sure they would start proceedings against Mignini and others.

The case has been moved to Turin. We shall see if he faces another trial and if he is found not guilty on the merits. Just being charged by members of the ILE says a lot to me.

Yes Mignini has sued a number of people, I have no idea what current status is of any of the cases listed in the IA post. However, my opinion is in the absence of any charges leading to a conviction if any individual believes they have been defamed it is up to them to decide whether they sue, given that Mignini is a magistrate his response is hardly surprising.

Could you furnish a few cases in your area where a local prosecutor sued a defendant or a defendants relative for defamation? Can you give an example of someone being sued for what they said in court?

The police didn't produce a recording for either of AK's interrogations yet if their defense attorneys repeat what she told them in court they can be charged with a criminal offense.

PMF .org/.net not sure which mentioned the name Michele Giuttari's as someone else likely to sue Raffaele, it is very early days and I am sure others will start proceedings against Raffaele.

Why are you sure that others will sue? What should he be sued about?

What does the CIA story have to do with anything? Are you saying that the prosecutors in Florence were showing judicial independence when they charged Mignini? Do you believe that Mignini was convicted by a corrupt court? Did that court make a fair judgment or do you believe Italian courts are often corrupt including the one that convicted the Italian for the CIA crimes?

 

[acbytesla]

I am going through the evidence step by step on Facebook and it just happens I have the cell phone information handy from Raffaele's appeal. There is a big technical difference between the prosecution expert and the defense expert, imo. I do believe the appeal is not quite accurate on the call in question, however. Attached. (katy_did translation)

Thanks Rose, I'm just wading into it.

 

[Grinder]

Thanks for clarifying. I addressed this above - see point 1 in this post. I am betting a yacht to a condo there is no evidence to show the texts were discussed before the 5th. Amanda described what she did on the night of the 1st in her email of the 4th and managed the whole thing in a single sentence. You are expecting them to assign significance to something entirely inconsequential from their perspective as mere witnesses.

I'll take the yacht side of the bet as I have my eye on a very special condo.

I really find it impossible to believe that the police went over and over what happened that evening they never got to the cancelling of work. The fact that she didn't mention it in her email doesn't have any significance to me.

She doesn't mention anything about the evening except that they didn't go out. You can read it here with statement analysis. If you bother to look at the link you will that the person doing the statement analysis forgets that she has been through several hours of going over the day and before the murder and the day of discovery. Clearly an email written after a number of hours of interviews will be influenced by those interviews. She knows that she didn't go out and in telling her friends about the murder she tells about Meredith's last day and scene the next day. Then some general description of what she did with the police. There is no detail about the murder night at Raf's. There was no reason to report the PL SMS. She doesn't mention Popovich either - do you think the police erased her as well ?

 

[anglolawyer]

I'll take the yacht side of the bet as I have my eye on a very special condo.

I really find it impossible to believe that the police went over and over what happened that evening they never got to the cancelling of work. The fact that she didn't mention it in her email doesn't have any significance to me.

She doesn't mention anything about the evening except that they didn't go out. You can read it here with statement analysis. If you bother to look at the link you will that the person doing the statement analysis forgets that she has been through several hours of going over the day and before the murder and the day of discovery. Clearly an email written after a number of hours of interviews will be influenced by those interviews. She knows that she didn't go out and in telling her friends about the murder she tells about Meredith's last day and scene the next day. Then some general description of what she did with the police. There is no detail about the murder night at Raf's. There was no reason to report the PL SMS. She doesn't mention Popovich either - do you think the police erased her as well ?

I read enough of the statement analysis to evaluate it's merit:

after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
evening and night indoors. we didnt go out.

Negation. The subject has told us what wasn't done. This is an inidication that the subject did go out.

But it seems you owe me a yacht because of this:

MIGNINI: Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45? Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.
AK: Before when?
MIGNINI: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?
AK: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

Needless to say, The Theory predicted this.

 

[Grinder]

Originally Posted by p137 AK transcript
MIGNINI: Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45? Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.
AK: Before when?
MIGNINI: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?
AK: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.
Needless to say, The Theory predicted this.

Well, by far your best effort yet. It is seems clear at first she didn't mention Patrick by name. It doesn't preclude that she said she received a text from her boss or work telling her not to come to work.

So at this time did she say no one asked or I didn't remember until the police showed me his text - no she said until they suggested the name.

Once again one must wonder a bit on translation.

In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick.

He says that she mentioned Patrick Nov. 2, Nov. 3, Nov 4 and Nov. 6 -