What to do with an ex Pope?

[Brainache]

Has anyone here read this book?:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9780241953846/case-pope

The Case of the Pope
Author: Geoffrey Robertson

THE CASE OF THE POPE delivers a devasting indictment of the way the Vatican has run a secret legal system that shields paedophile priests from criminal trial around the world.

Is the Pope morally or legally responsible for the negligence that has allowed so many terrible crimes to go unpunished? Should he and his seat of power, the Holy See, continue to enjoy an immunity that places them above the law?

Geoffrey Robertson QC, a distinguished human rights lawyer and judge, evinces a deep respect for the good works of Catholics and their church. But, he argues, unless Pope Benedict XVI can divest himself of the beguilements of statehood and devotion to obsolescent Canon Law, the Vatican will remain a serious enemy to the advance of human rights.

Will there be a prosecution now that Ratzinger is no longer a head of state?

How would anyone go about arresting him?

Has Robertson got it wrong and old Popey Pants has nothing to answer for?

Should I have put this in Gawd's thread about insulting Catholics?

Any thoughts?

 

[Craig B]

Has anyone here read this book?:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9780241953846/case-pope


Will there be a prosecution now that Ratzinger is no longer a head of state?

How would anyone go about arresting him?

Has Robertson got it wrong and old Popey Pants has nothing to answer for?

Should I have put this in Gawd's thread about insulting Catholics?

Any thoughts?

There's only one precedent, Celestine V in 1294. Here's how the situation was handled then, from wiki.

Having divested himself of every outward symbol of papal dignity, he retired to his old solitude ... The former Celestine, Pietro Angelerio, was not allowed to remain in solitude. Various parties had opposed his resignation and the new Pope Boniface VIII had reason to worry that one of them might install him as an antipope. To prevent this he ordered Pietro brought to Rome. Pietro escaped and hid out in the woods before returning to Sulmona to resume monastic life. This proved impossible and Pietro was captured after an attempt to flee to Dalmatia. Boniface imprisoned him in the castle of Fumone near Ferentino in Campagna, where Pietro died after 10 months. His supporters spread the allegation that Boniface had treated him harshly and ultimately executed Pietro.

 

[Brainache]

There's only one precedent, Celestine V in 1294. Here's how the situation was handled then, from wiki.

It will be interesting to see how much the RCC has changed in the last 700 years, if at all.

I guess Benedict/Ratzinger is hoping for a peaceful retirement, but I hope he is hounded and prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

 

[ddt]

Has anyone here read this book?:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9780241953846/case-pope

No. But sounds interesting.

Will there be a prosecution now that Ratzinger is no longer a head of state?

Unlikely. Nobody has even tried to put bishops on trial, let alone the Pope. But hope springs eternal.

How would anyone go about arresting him?

That's easy. The Pope has announced he will spend some time at Castel Gandolfo:

Vatican spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi announced that Benedict would retire to Castel Gandolfo after his resignation, but would eventually take up residence in a cloistered monastery within the Vatican

And for that he has to pass Italian territory. If there were a prosecutor with balls within the EU, he could issue a European Arrest Warrant:

The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is an arrest warrant valid throughout all member states of the European Union (EU). Once issued, it requires another member state to arrest and transfer a criminal suspect or sentenced person to the issuing state so that the person can be put on trial or complete a detention period.

So the Italian police would be required to arrest him.

Alternatively, a secret service could kidnap him (see: Eichmann, Vanunu). Once he's in your court, the illegality of how he got there is utterly irrelevant. Well, it would be a diplomatic row, but there's no legal need to let him leave the country again. And he wouldn't be the first ex-head of state against which prosecution was initiated (see: Pinochet).

Has Robertson got it wrong and old Popey Pants has nothing to answer for?

For an answer to that question, you'd have to read the book. But from what has been reported in the press, my definite impression is that the pope has criminal responsibility for the child sexual abuses complex.

 

[AlBell]

It will be interesting to see how much the RCC has changed in the last 700 years, if at all.

I guess Benedict/Ratzinger is hoping for a peaceful retirement, but I hope he is hounded and prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

Become a Soylent Green ingredient?

 

[fuelair]

On what to do with the Pope:

Bronze him (they should have started this ages ago - could sell indulgences for paying part of the bronzing cost - or having pilgrims pay to touch or kiss the bronzed figure. Could work for saints too - maybe even higher charge for them!!!

 

[fuelair]

Orrrr: preserve him and put him in Acrylic or similar - do same otherwise.

 

[joesixpack]

If he is at all responsible for any of the coverup it would seem natural that he'd be arrested. Perhaps his retirement has to do with his desire for this outcome? He would be immune if he didn't retire and I can't imagine that the possibility of his arrest hadn't crossed his mind.

 

[AlBell]

On what to do with the Pope:

Bronze him (they should have started this ages ago - could sell indulgences for paying part of the bronzing cost - or having pilgrims pay to touch or kiss the bronzed figure. Could work for saints too - maybe even higher charge for them!!!

Could we say 'polish the knob'?

 

[fuelair]

He's the head of his country (retired Good try at extraditing him.

 

[Verklagekasper]

How detached from reality can one get? There is nothing to prosecute or arrest him for.

 

[joesixpack]

How detached from reality can one get? There is nothing to prosecute or arrest him for.

I was under the impression that there was some involvement in his past with the shielding of pedophile priests. I don't know it to be so. It could simply be rumors.

 

[Craig B]

How detached from reality can one get? There is nothing to prosecute or arrest him for.

Quite so. The offending priests are the ones who will be arrested. It seems incredible that the ex-Pope will be bundled into a police car soon as he sets foot outside the Vatican.

 

[Irony]

Much as I'd love to see the Church brought to justice, I don't think going after the Rat is the best way about it. Should we punish him, it sends the signal that he was the problem rather than the problem being an organization which is corrupt on all levels. The Church itself needs to face punishment for its crimes.

Besides, given his age and health we'd probably have to go all Courtroom Trial at Bernie's anyway.

 

[Brian-M]

For some reason I'm reminded of the song Drunken Sailor.

What shall we do with a papal failure?
What shall we do with a papal failure?
What shall we do with a papal failure?
Early in the morning.

Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Early in the morning.

Put him in the long-boat and make him bale her.
Put him in the long-boat and make him bale her.
Put him in the long-boat and make him bale her.
Early in the morning.

Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Early in the morning.

What shall we do with a papal failure?
What shall we do with a papal failure?
What shall we do with a papal failure?
Early in the morning.

Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Hoorah! And up she rises.
Early in the morning.

Put him in the guardroom till he gets sober.
Put him in the guardroom till he gets sober.
Put him in the guardroom till he gets sober.
Early in the morning.
​

 

[Brainache]

How detached from reality can one get? There is nothing to prosecute or arrest him for.

Apart from the letter he wrote to all the Bishops when he was head of the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith (AKA The Inquisition), which told them not to go to the Police and to deal with abuse of children as an internal Church matter?

Here is the transcript of a BBC Documentary "Sex Crimes and the Vatican":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5402928.stm

There is an option to watch it there, but my comp is a bit too old and slow. But if you do watch it, I think the bombshell is at about 15 minutes in.

Then there's this from the Huffington Post:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/pope-sexual-abuse-lawrence-murphy_n_512483.html

...But he has yet to say anything about his handling of an abuse case in Germany.

In that case, Ratzinger approved the 1980 transfer of Rev. Peter Hullermann to a psychological treatment center to receive treatment for pedophilia. Ratziner, then a cardinal, was the archbishop of Munich and did not report Hullermann's alleged abuse of boys to German police...

Do you still say he has nothing to answer for?

ETA: The name of the document from Ratzinger to the Bishops is "Crimen Sollicitationis". http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

 

[fuelair]

Could we say 'polish the knob'?

We certainly could - not sure if church officials would though - except young boys perhaps.

 

[eight bits]

Will there be a prosecution now that Ratzinger is no longer a head of state?

Vatican City and the Holy See can do with its citizens whatever the sitting Pope pleases. Assuming that there is an abdiication agreement (which is routine), then Ratzinger presumably will remain an employee of the Church assigned to the Vatican, retain his Vatican City ciitizenship, and most crucially, hold a Holy See diplomatic passport.

As long as he travels on that, avoids territory that has no diplomatic relations with the Holy See, and the new Pope doesn't extradite him, he should be golden.

Apart from that, he's a non-voting cardinal in indifferent health. There's no pressing need to do anything at all with him. Let go and let God, so to speak.

 

[Verklagekasper]

Apart from the letter he wrote to all the Bishops when he was head of the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith (AKA The Inquisition), which told them not to go to the Police and to deal with abuse of children as an internal Church matter?

This is wrong. The "Epistula de delictis gravioribus", written and distributed by Ratzinger in the name of Pope John Paul II in 2001, did not tell them not to go to the police. The secrecy was about the church internal trial process instead. A person who found out about sex abuse and is involved in such a trial must not reveal the trial, but can report the crime to the police.

ETA: The name of the document from Ratzinger to the Bishops is "Crimen Sollicitationis". http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

No. The name was "Epistula de delictis gravioribus", and it replaced "Crimen Sollicitationis". EDDG put child abuse in the same category as eucharistic desecration, and it obliged church officials to centrally report cases of child abuse to prevent local cover ups.

Btw, this would have been a great opportunity for you to demonstrate skepticism. Instead, you took a claim at face value just because it nicely fits your preconceived world view.

 

[yomero]

How detached from reality can one get? There is nothing to prosecute or arrest him for.

Father Marcial Maciel was the founder and leader of the powerful Legion of Christ order in Mexico and later in other countries. In 1999, Alberto Althié (now a former priest) prepared a letter documenting several cases of sexual abuse done by Maciel against teen-aged seminarians. The bishop of Saltillo, CarlosTalavera, delivered the letter to cardinal J. Ratzinger then head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Ratzinger's answer was: '' Regretfully, we can not open Father Maciel's case because he is a person beloved by the holy father (John Paul II), and has done the Church much good.''

An internal investigation in 2006 proved the accusations to be true. Benedict XVI ordered Maciel to leave the leadership of the Legion and to dedicate his remaining years to '' prayer and penance.''

Ratzinger knew the facts in 1999 and decided not to act. The 2006 investigation resulted in merely disciplining Maciel within the Church.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcial_Maciel