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Sideroxylon said:
Since blazing bosoms are not exclusive to the LDS, this is no evidence at all.
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Yes it is. It's obviously not what everyone would consider good evidence, but it's an important concession by LDS members (and other religious people) that evidence is important for them, the same as it is for skeptics.

I don't think such a concession should be dismissed so quickly.

The quibble isn't over how good or reliable the evidence is. The point is that they actually are relying on evidence. It's the scientific method: form a hypothesis (the Mormon church might be true), do an experiment (ask if it is), and form a conclusion about the hypothesis based on the results (burning=evidence for, no burning=evidence against).

As silly as it sounds to skeptics, it's an illustration that religious people have the same underlying "belief" that testing and evidence are the way you find the truth, just like skeptics.

So if both religious and non-religious people use the premise or underlying belief that testing and evidence are how one gains knowledge, the question for Skyrider then is: what "belief system" do atheists have, that religious people don't?
 
Janadele said:
Slowvehicle:
Totally false... as previous posts have already addressed.
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I offer you your own posts, where you said that "of course" Egyptologists who pointed out that the hydrocephalus that Smith "translated" were, in fact, from the Book of Breathing, and had nothing to do with, nor was there the remotest possibility they were written by, Abraham; following which you claimed that such were "anti-mormon"; following which you related your unpleasant (and, as I said before, if they actually happened, inexcusable) experiences at the hands of "anti-mormons".

The claim that BoA is a valid translation of the BoB is what is demonstrably false. I encourage you to provide a neutral source that demonstrates otherwise.
 
Pup said:
Yes it is. It's obviously not what everyone would consider good evidence, but it's an important concession by LDS members (and other religious people) that evidence is important for them, the same as it is for skeptics.

I don't think such a concession should be dismissed so quickly.

The quibble isn't over how good or reliable the evidence is. The point is that they actually are relying on evidence. It's the scientific method: form a hypothesis (the Mormon church might be true), do an experiment (ask if it is), and form a conclusion about the hypothesis based on the results (burning=evidence for, no burning=evidence against).

As silly as it sounds to skeptics, it's an illustration that religious people have the same underlying "belief" that testing and evidence are the way you find the truth, just like skeptics.

So if both religious and non-religious people use the premise or underlying belief that testing and evidence are how one gains knowledge, the question for Skyrider then is: what "belief system" do atheists have, that religious people don't?
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1: The strong feelings of a religious experience are widely had and conclusions held often with high certainty.
2: The faith conclusions they lead to are diverse and frequently contradictory.
C: Therefore any religious experience I may have could be wrong no matter how powerful.

This should set right even those who have no interest in our best understandings of the human mind.
 
Pup said:
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We've even seen it mentioned in this thread, where potential Mormons are expected to ask and receive the evidence of a burning in the bosom before believing.

The disagreement then is over what's reliable evidence, not the underlying premise that evidence itself is important.
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Sideroxylon said:
Since blazing bosoms are not exclusive to the LDS, this is no evidence at all.
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Pup said:
Yes it is. It's obviously not what everyone would consider good evidence, but it's an important concession by LDS members (and other religious people) that evidence is important for them, the same as it is for skeptics.

I don't think such a concession should be dismissed so quickly.

The quibble isn't over how good or reliable the evidence is. The point is that they actually are relying on evidence. It's the scientific method: form a hypothesis (the Mormon church might be true), do an experiment (ask if it is), and form a conclusion about the hypothesis based on the results (burning=evidence for, no burning=evidence against).

As silly as it sounds to skeptics, it's an illustration that religious people have the same underlying "belief" that testing and evidence are the way you find the truth, just like skeptics.

So if both religious and non-religious people use the premise or underlying belief that testing and evidence are how one gains knowledge, the question for Skyrider then is: what "belief system" do atheists have, that religious people don't?
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Mormons believe the burning in the bosom to be a unique and particular experience, correct me if I'm wrong.

We know this to be utterly false, so there are reasons to dismiss the idea this is evidence of anything at all out of hand.
 
Janadele said:
Jon: I neither said nor implied "which was somehow different from "regular occurrence" that happen with other religious groups." Perhaps you were thinking of my statement: "This one time experience is different from the continuing testimony of the Holy Spirit who also assists in understanding and knowledge when one asks." which refers to the continuing assistance given to that paticular person from then onwards, provisional on continuing worthiness.
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Instead of telling us what you did not say or imply, why don't you actually say something? You wrote things from which I inferred that you considered your conversion experience to be qualitatively different from the conversion experiences of people in other religions. Did I infer incorrectly? If so, what did you mean in post #4030 when you wrote "Dismissing an answer from the Lord as merely "a burning" as if it were a regular occurance amongst many groups is making light of a significant sacred event and totally misunderstanding."?

If my inference was correct, please explain why you concluded that your conversion experience was qualitatively different, and how you reached that conclusion.

Thank you.

ETA: no, I was not thinking of the statement you referred to there. I was thinking of the statement I quoted in my portion of this post, which (I think) I also quoted in the post to which you replied. If I didn't, then at least my post was immediately after yours.
 
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pakeha said:
Mormons believe the burning in the bosom to be a unique and particular experience, correct me if I'm wrong.

We know this to be utterly false, so there are reasons to dismiss the idea this is evidence of anything at all out of hand.
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I'm not sure that's correct, pakeha. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that Mormons accept that other people experience that burning in the bosom, but simply believe that other people who experience it are wrong and being led by Satan. More or less how people of other faiths feel the same thing about Mormons.

How they know their burning is from god, and the other people are led astray, instead of the other way around, is, of course, the million-dollar question.

ETA: I just spoke to my mother about this, and she agreed that other religions experience this burning, as well. She echoes Janadele's statement that all religions have some truth in them--it's only Mormonism that has the fullness of the gospel, and that when people experience the burning, it's the holy ghost speaking to them of the truth of the gospel. I specifically asked her if that was correct even if a Hindu, for example, who believed in completely different gods were still getting that same burning from her god, and she says yes. Of course, that just shows that once again god is a moron, since he doesn't bother to tell whoever is praying to the wrong god they've gone and got it all ass-backwards, but we all know that logic and religion are not exactly buddy-buddy.

She also mentioned that she's never experienced the burning in the bosom herself, so she can't speak about it except for what she's heard/read about others feeling it.
 
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Empress said:
I'm not sure that's correct, pakeha. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that Mormons accept that other people experience that burning in the bosom, but simply believe that other people who experience it are wrong and being led by Satan. More or less how people of other faiths feel the same thing about Mormons.

How they know their burning is from god, and the other people are led astray, instead of the other way around, is, of course, the million-dollar question.
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I thought Satan used fire?
 
Empress said:
I'm not sure that's correct, pakeha. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that Mormons accept that other people experience that burning in the bosom, but simply believe that other people who experience it are wrong and being led by Satan. More or less how people of other faiths feel the same thing about Mormons.

How they know their burning is from god, and the other people are led astray, instead of the other way around, is, of course, the million-dollar question.
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Absolutely right. There is no way you could know if you were being deceived.
 
Empress said:
How they know their burning is from god, and the other people are led astray, instead of the other way around, is, of course, the million-dollar question.
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The answer to that question is Faith. And the wheel of logic completes another rotation.
 
Sideroxylon said:
1: The strong feelings of a religious experience are widely had and conclusions held often with high certainty.
2: The faith conclusions they lead to are diverse and frequently contradictory.
C: Therefore any religious experience I may have could be wrong no matter how powerful.

This should set right even those who have no interest in our best understandings of the human mind.
Click to expand...

pakeha said:
Mormons believe the burning in the bosom to be a unique and particular experience, correct me if I'm wrong.

We know this to be utterly false, so there are reasons to dismiss the idea this is evidence of anything at all out of hand.
Click to expand...

Of course. I'm not disagreeing with any of that. But it's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which I think you're both completely missing.

I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than I did in my last two posts, but I'll try one final time.

I'm not talking about using better evidence to prove weak evidence wrong. I'm talking about the premise that evidence is important at all.

Skyrider said atheists share a belief system. I think he's right, but I think it's a trivial point because it's the same belief system that theists share too.

The only basic premise or postulate or axiom or "belief" that skeptical atheism requires is: one needn't believe in anything without sufficient evidence. That's why a skeptical atheist can logically say, "I don't believe in any gods because there's no [sufficient] evidence for them."

So Skyrider could make the argument that all skeptical atheists do have that premise/postulate/axiom/belief in common. Whether or not that's the particular belief he was referring to, I think one could make a strong case that it's true. So it looks like he's right.

If that's not the atheistic belief system he was referring to, I have no idea what he meant. A belief in the importance of evidence seems to be the only "belief" that skeptical atheism requires.

My point, though, is that it's not a belief unique to atheists. It's so widespread that it applies to all humans, and therefore it's trivial to say it's an attribute of atheists. One might as well say atheists love their children just like theists, or get tired after exercising just like theists. Sure, but so what?

Here's my reasoning to show that it's a widespread belief among both skeptical atheists and theists, and therefore trivial: Mormons don't say, "just believe if you feel like it." They say: "do this to get evidence before you believe." They're acknowledging the importance of evidence.

Sure, what they rely on is lousy evidence. I don't disagree with that at all. But theists are giving up a lot of ground simply by claiming that faith should be based on any kind of evidence at all, rather than, well, blind faith.
 
Slowvehicle said:
I offer you your own posts, where you said that "of course" Egyptologists who pointed out that the hydrocephalus that Smith "translated" were, in fact, from the Book of Breathing, and had nothing to do with, nor was there the remotest possibility they were written by, Abraham; following which you claimed that such were "anti-mormon"; following which you related your unpleasant (and, as I said before, if they actually happened, inexcusable) experiences at the hands of "anti-mormons".

The claim that BoA is a valid translation of the BoB is what is demonstrably false. I encourage you to provide a neutral source that demonstrates otherwise.
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I'm also looking forward to Janadele's reply.

Empress said:
I'm not sure that's correct, pakeha. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that Mormons accept that other people experience that burning in the bosom, but simply believe that other people who experience it are wrong and being led by Satan. More or less how people of other faiths feel the same thing about Mormons.

How they know their burning is from god, and the other people are led astray, instead of the other way around, is, of course, the million-dollar question.

ETA: I just spoke to my mother about this, and she agreed that other religions experience this burning, as well. She echoes Janadele's statement that all religions have some truth in them--it's only Mormonism that has the fullness of the gospel, and that when people experience the burning, it's the holy ghost speaking to them of the truth of the gospel. I specifically asked her if that was correct even if a Hindu, for example, who believed in completely different gods were still getting that same burning from her god, and she says yes. Of course, that just shows that once again god is a moron, since he doesn't bother to tell whoever is praying to the wrong god they've gone and got it all ass-backwards, but we all know that logic and religion are not exactly buddy-buddy.

She also mentioned that she's never experienced the burning in the bosom herself, so she can't speak about it except for what she's heard/read about others feeling it.
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Thank you so much for the post!
I stand corrected and am most happy to admit it.
It does, however show that using 'the burning in the bosom' as evidence of anything is even more despicable than I'd originally thought.

It reminds me a bit of 'ducking' or looking for devil's marks, somehow.
 
Janadele said:
Post 3965 Page 100.
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Before sending people off through the thread to look again at what you wrote earlier, please at least indicate what the direction is in response to. It would, of course, be more polite to simply answer the question that you are being asked (hint: if it's being asked over again, have a closer look and make sure you really answered it, rather than quoting scripture or trying to change the subject).
 
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