Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Anglo if one of your personalities has the Monica Napoleoni article translation please provide.

:)

Sarah at IA posted this yesterday:

Perugia, head of the murder investigation for abuse of power. Defense, "the non-existent 'serious' evidence of guilt'

The investigating judge has suspended the deputy commissioner Monica Napoleoni despite the request of the prosecutor. Another official suspended for two months. Investigated two other policemen

Francesca Marruco and Ivano Porfiri

Investigations abusive and damage, this is assuming the prosecution against the head of the homicide squad of Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, and three other officials investigated as part of a coordinated investigation by the public prosecutor Giuseppe Petrazzini and carried out by the same squad. For the substitute commissioner and three other policemen, Stefano Gubbiotti, Stefania Squarta and Lorraine Zugarini, the prosecutor had also asked for a protective order, which was granted by the investigating magistrate only for the assistant Zugarini, suspended for two months of service.

The accusation According to the prosecution's story the four, on behalf of the Napoleons, had carried out the 'illegal investigation' of a juvenile court psychologist who had given a negative opinion when Napoleons had requested the revocation of parental rights of her former husband on son. In particular, according to the view of the Petrazzini pm, in addition to access to the computer system abusive Interforce, would be implicated in incidents of damage and written insulting.

The wheels cut The investigation is in fact born in the aftermath of an incident to the psychologist. It was on November 17 last year when the daughter of the professional who uses the car headed to his mother back home notes that "all four tires were cut," and on the cover was written "'whore, so you learn to take the children mothers' drawn with blue pen and accompanied by a phallic design. " For this episode, and for another offensive written referring to the same professional, was brought complaint. "Reaffirming that he never used the car damaged, speculated (psychologist, ed) that the author of the act had reconnected the midst of his person by the PRA or similar investigations." The prosecutor then has been verified that there were "questions computer records related to the car." It is from this finding that emerges as the 14 and 16 November last year, had been made by the police to Questions of Perugia. Precisely the three officials investigated together with Napoleoni, even though "there was no investigation in progress on the psychologist."

Offenses On November 18, one night after the episode of the wheels cut, the husband of the complainant Napoleoni written for the offensive that are made in house. "You must die" and "Pedophile." In the call to 112 that he does, he says to see an Audi dark away from his property. The deputy commissioner has the same car. She herself asking two police officers to get her the CD with the recording of the call, "and then use it for the story relating to custody of the child." But the record is not never date.

The public prosecutor's office Dec. 17 Squarta Gubbiotti and are summoned by the prosecutor. The woman, who still does not know the reason for calling the prosecutor's office, sends messages to the deputy commissioner Napoleoni saying that perhaps they had been called for those "questions that we have done for you" and "asking for directions on how to respond." "What? But when you made them? "Is told. "I do not vel'ho never asked ... not'm crazy."

By the investigating magistrate in January, all suspects are also heard by the judge for questioning warranty. Napoleoni denies ever entrusted to a colleague to 'surveys' on the psychologist, while others admit they questioned the information system joint, as they had done before the pm. Only the assistant Zugarini, which according to the reconstruction asked the other two to do the checks, it provides the public prosecutor and the investigating judge another motivation. A Petrazzini says he did research on psychologist "curiosity" because he had no say in the delicate question of custody of the son of my colleague. On the other hand, says that the magistrate would have made to check the news coming from a "confidential source that could have a survey on the psychologist."

The reasons of the court The magistrate suspended only because Zugarini rietiene "highly likely to repeat similar conduct." Does not accept the request of the prosecutor for Napoleoni because "he was not in office on November 14," "in conversations and intercepted messages has always shown to have no knowledge of searches," and gave "an explanation for the pressing demands' for police. "Reconstruction alternative appears unlikely in the opinion of this magistrate, and puts an element of doubt can not be overcome adequately on the basis of reliable data available about participation in acts - even as an instigator and participant in the implementation of the pipeline material illegal - dell'indagata Napoleoni the misconduct alleged. It does not seem implausible, moreover, that the investigated Zugarini has acted on its own initiative. " As for the other defendants, to the investigating judge, "do not appear to have competition in the illegal conduct for independent initiative, but were affected by the colleague."

The note replication of the legal defense of the substitute commissioner Monica Napoleoni and assistant Lorraine Zugarini not have to wait long. The lawyer Nicola Di Mario has issued a statement in which it stressed as "the affair that concerns the deputy commissioner Monica Napoleoni has already undergone an initial judicial review (with a favorable outcome for the position dell'indagata) by the investigating judge of Perugia. Any news already widely known about it, having been marked distortions exhibition - says the lawyer Di Mario - has represented the events in a manner inconsistent with historical reality. In fact, at the conclusion of the interrogation of warranty, the Authority in charge has rejected the request for suspension from service, made by the public prosecutor's office in Perugia, evaluating non-existent, payable Officer of the judicial police, the serious indications of guilt. The Organ of caution has, that is - the lawyer explains Di Mario -, considered, with widespread and flawless motivation than he was the Deputy Commissioner Napoleoni proves insufficient, since genetic moment, the general condition of applicability of the instrument preemptive scheduled Ordinamento proceedings. In addition, in respect of Napoleons there have been no objections to hypothetical damage suffered by third parties, but only a high charge provisional unauthorized access to computer system, however, has received positive feedbacks from the test carried out by the judge for preliminary investigations " . The other defendants are defended by lawyers Lino Ciaccio and Michael Nannarone.

In Review The powers of investigation are carried out by the squad who, we learn from the police, "all the interest to clarify everything, even to protect data subjects', which were all four for other offices, where it will fulfill no investigation, "pending the outcome of the story." Meanwhile, the public prosecutor Giuseppe Petrazzini has appealed to the Review against the decision of the investigating judge. The action could be discussed as early as next week.
 
Really? I'm just dying to vilify Napoleoni because of that picture. Do you have a URL?

Now that the picture is there, we can now ask her to prove her innocence. After all she can be presumed guilty. Why? Because I started off neutral.

I say someone should slap her up the back of the head, then charge her with calunnia for whining about it.

Re: the URL, I just put her name in google, selected images and chose the most flattering one I could find.

Yes, I was also wondering about the interrogation. Of course, she remains only a person informed of the facts so there is no need to for excessive formality.
 
Coulsdon, I'm very disappointed that you will not address the issue of whether Mignini having his case sent to a new jurisdiction by the appeal's court is the same as Hellmann's court finding on the merits that A & R were not guilty.

Also, on reflection it is strange that you demand an Italian account of Mignini but can't translate the article on Monica Napoleoni. Yummi account on this seems to say he knows of her domestic (divorce?) problems previous to this crime. He seems to skip the part of the case revolving around the fact that the psychologist seemed to recommend her husband instead of her.

Later he writes that the suspended cop was just operating on his own in stalking the psychologist but seems a stretch. That would indicate Monica Napoleoni shared these personal details in a very unprofessional manner. At best she would have put her people in a position to the crimes they did. There seems to be no doubt that the psychologists file was accessed illegally.

I write with so many seems because of my lack of the ability in Italian.

Anglo if one of your personalities has the Monica Napoleoni article translation please provide.
Grinder

I believe I have addressed your question also Bill’s post quoting Wiki confirms that if and when the Monster of Florence case against Mignini gets to court it will start from scratch; that is the first level trial. Whilst Raffaele and Amanda have so far had 2 of their 3 trials, of course the second ending in their acquittal subject to confirmation by the Supreme Court. I do not know enough about Italian law but Mignini’s case will not start from the second level trial.

I responded to the Napoleoni link you provided, please see below:

Grinder
Ok managed a Google translation of the link got the gist of the allegations against Napoleoni and others.

It’s an allegation but you are already making a judgement, ok that’s your prerogative.
A question in your opinion what is the difference between an annulment and an acquittal?
 
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Anglo while I appreciate the effort it sure would be nice to have an Italian speaker do a translation that isn't Yummi.

The idea that the cops asked Monica Napoleoni how to respond is more evidence than the "see you later" text :D.

Yes, Coulsdon from what we are being told it would seem pretty clear that she did something wrong. But, she hasn't been found guilty by the highest court so not convicted. I'm sure the cops texted her in order to frame her. Don't you think?
 
Anglo while I appreciate the effort it sure would be nice to have an Italian speaker do a translation that isn't Yummi.

The idea that the cops asked Monica Napoleoni how to respond is more evidence than the "see you later" text :D.

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There's no pleasing some folks.
 
Grinder

I believe I have addressed your question also Bill’s post quoting Wiki confirms that if and when the Monster of Florence case against Mignini gets to court it will start from scratch; that is the first level trial. Whilst Raffaele and Amanda have so far had 2 of their 3 trials, of course the second ending in their acquittal subject to confirmation by the Supreme Court. I do not know enough about Italian law but Mignini’s case will not start from the second level trial.

No you have never responded to the direct question: Was Mignini convicted in a court of law? Correct answer: Yes. Was he ever found not guilty in a court of law based on the merits of the case? Correct answer: No

The case did get to court. He was found guilty. The appeals court ruled that a different jurisdiction needed to hear the case and vacated the guilty verdict based on a technicality, not on the merits.

I don't have recent updates but it is possible that the Florence court could have appealed the appellate ruling to the Corte Suprema di Cassazione.

It is so rare for police or prosecutors to be brought up on charges, those alone indicate something in and of themselves.
 
I found this on the other side. I don't know where it originated.

Okay I think I understand the prosecution's case better now: There was this psychologist, who evaluated Napoleoni's child custody case, and decided that she should not have sole custody. On November 17 someone slashed his tires and wrote, "That'll teach you to take children from their mothers" on the hood. He speculated that someone had used the motor vehicles database to figure out where he lived. He was right. On November 14 and 16 three officers had accessed his info: Napoleoni's friend Zugarini and two assistants.

The day after the tires were slashed, someone went to Napoleoni's ex-husband's house and wrote "You must die" and "Pedophile" on the outside. He told 112 that he saw a dark-colored Audi, which is what Napoleoni drives. Sometime after that, Napoleoni requested the CD of the 112 call, saying it was for a child custody case. For some reason the CD was never provided to her.

On December 17, the two junior officers were called to meet with the Prosecutor. Not knowing what it was about they texted Napoleoni speculating that it might be about "something we did for you" and "asking for directions on how to respond." Napoleoni answered, "What? When did you do this? I never asked... I'm not crazy."

It doesn't appear that Napoleoni or Zugarini were interviewed by the PM. Zugarini is suspended. All of them may be back in court as early as next week.


Anyone that has been around plausible deniability would look at the exchange between Nappy and her underlings and raise an eyebrow. I wonder what her MySpace nickname was.
 
I found this on the other side. I don't know where it originated.

Okay I think I understand the prosecution's case better now: There was this psychologist, who evaluated Napoleoni's child custody case, and decided that she should not have sole custody. On November 17 someone slashed his tires and wrote, "That'll teach you to take children from their mothers" on the hood. He speculated that someone had used the motor vehicles database to figure out where he lived. He was right. On November 14 and 16 three officers had accessed his info: Napoleoni's friend Zugarini and two assistants.

The day after the tires were slashed, someone went to Napoleoni's ex-husband's house and wrote "You must die" and "Pedophile" on the outside. He told 112 that he saw a dark-colored Audi, which is what Napoleoni drives. Sometime after that, Napoleoni requested the CD of the 112 call, saying it was for a child custody case. For some reason the CD was never provided to her.

On December 17, the two junior officers were called to meet with the Prosecutor. Not knowing what it was about they texted Napoleoni speculating that it might be about "something we did for you" and "asking for directions on how to respond." Napoleoni answered, "What? When did you do this? I never asked... I'm not crazy."

It doesn't appear that Napoleoni or Zugarini were interviewed by the PM. Zugarini is suspended. All of them may be back in court as early as next week.


Anyone that has been around plausible deniability would look at the exchange between Nappy and her underlings and raise an eyebrow. I wonder what her MySpace nickname was.
Quite. Does this unseemly episode have any bearing at all on Monica's overall reliability and trustworthiness (not to mention that of her underlings)? I mean in relation to any other cases she has been involved in.
 
No you have never responded to the direct question: Was Mignini convicted in a court of law? Correct answer: Yes. Was he ever found not guilty in a court of law based on the merits of the case? Correct answer: No

The case did get to court. He was found guilty. The appeals court ruled that a different jurisdiction needed to hear the case and vacated the guilty verdict based on a technicality, not on the merits.

I don't have recent updates but it is possible that the Florence court could have appealed the appellate ruling to the Corte Suprema di Cassazione.

It is so rare for police or prosecutors to be brought up on charges, those alone indicate something in and of themselves.
Man oh man. I'm with CoulsdonUK on this. Regardless of the technicalities of extremely narrow, irrelevant questions, the man is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law with due process. The "guilty" verdict is not worth anything. Why pound away at it as if it were? The man was, the other court decided, denied due process.
 
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Quite. Does this unseemly episode have any bearing at all on Monica's overall reliability and trustworthiness (not to mention that of her underlings)? I mean in relation to any other cases she has been involved in.

Well I'd say that this has more relevance to the actual case than Frank's recent activities do.

There has long been an undercurrent of questions related to the discovery of the bra clasp 47 days after the first evidence gathering had ended. Would people that "on their own" would look up details on a psychologist and maybe "pay a visit" slashing tires also "on their own" find a way back into the cottage to replace a bra clasp?

Apparently it is clear that at least one of them broke the law. Did Monica order them to do it? Did she ask them to break the law? Did she let it be known that this psychologist wasn't pleasing her in terms that didn't need specifics to get the message across.
 
Well I'd say that this has more relevance to the actual case than Frank's recent activities do.

There has long been an undercurrent of questions related to the discovery of the bra clasp 47 days after the first evidence gathering had ended. Would people that "on their own" would look up details on a psychologist and maybe "pay a visit" slashing tires also "on their own" find a way back into the cottage to replace a bra clasp?

Apparently it is clear that at least one of them broke the law. Did Monica order them to do it? Did she ask them to break the law? Did she let it be known that this psychologist wasn't pleasing her in terms that didn't need specifics to get the message across.
It must also be at least as relevant as Amanda's rock throwing ticket and Raffaele's manga obsession. Wonky Monky is her Myspace name btw.
 
No you have never responded to the direct question: Was Mignini convicted in a court of law? Correct answer: Yes. Was he ever found not guilty in a court of law based on the merits of the case? Correct answer: No

The case did get to court. He was found guilty. The appeals court ruled that a different jurisdiction needed to hear the case and vacated the guilty verdict based on a technicality, not on the merits.

I don't have recent updates but it is possible that the Florence court could have appealed the appellate ruling to the Corte Suprema di Cassazione.

It is so rare for police or prosecutors to be brought up on charges, those alone indicate something in and of themselves.

Here is an article which may answer some of your questions:

http://www.agi.it/cronaca/notizie/2...e_cassazione_no_condanne_a_giuttari_e_mignini

The rarity of charges for police or prosecutors should indicate nothing in and of themselves; neither guilty or not guilty. That is what trials are for. Sometimes people, yes even police and prosecutors, are charged erroneously.

[The whole Monster of Florence subject, and the stories which surround it, is fascinating and one which might even rival this thread in comments.]
 
Here is an article which may answer some of your questions:

http://www.agi.it/cronaca/notizie/2...e_cassazione_no_condanne_a_giuttari_e_mignini

The rarity of charges for police or prosecutors should indicate nothing in and of themselves; neither guilty or not guilty. That is what trials are for. Sometimes people, yes even police and prosecutors, are charged erroneously.

[The whole Monster of Florence subject, and the stories which surround it, is fascinating and one which might even rival this thread in comments.]

Quick response before reading your link. I beg to differ on the rarity of charges. Generally speaking, as there are always exceptions, when the police or fellow prosecutors are charged it is the least likely of charges to be frivolous. Of course trials determine guilt or innocence. When was the last time a prosecutor was charged with a crime for his carrying out his job in your town? I can't remember the last time here.

The fact that cops and journalists were eavesdropped on and as I understand it, Mignini doesn't deny that does in and of itself give pause to the justice he metes out.

The fact that the only jury to hear the case convicted him adds to the concern. Just today the Corte Suprema di Cassazione ruled the appellate was right to send it back, so technically it wasn't ruled vacated until today.

This raises the question why another jurisdiction would take on a case with no dog in the fight?
 
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P.H. the translation I posted here actually came from dot org. I did and continue to make it clear I claim no Italian translation skills beyond Google.

It is interesting the time some spend elsewhere attacking the professional skills of posters here yet spend no time on the actual people that took part in the trial except C&V.

They allow people for the prosecution to use the title doctor without the requisite educational background. They excuse police misconduct by blaming the victim (of course being a middle aged male he deserves no support) and act as if the prosecutors legal difficulties somehow can be blamed on the supporters of A & K. They ignore the fact that he was charged before AK made it to Italy.
 
P.H. the translation I posted here actually came from dot org. I did and continue to make it clear I claim no Italian translation skills beyond Google.

It is interesting the time some spend elsewhere attacking the professional skills of posters here yet spend no time on the actual people that took part in the trial except C&V.

They allow people for the prosecution to use the title doctor without the requisite educational background. They excuse police misconduct by blaming the victim (of course being a middle aged male he deserves no support) and act as if the prosecutors legal difficulties somehow can be blamed on the supporters of A & K. They ignore the fact that he was charged before AK made it to Italy.

Very poor form. I agree, Grinder.

For my part, I am very happy to attack the professional skills of people actually involved in the case, particularly right now - Galati against whom I currently aim three accusations:

1 he is guilty of committing petitio principii with respect to Curatolo :jaw-dropp

2 I am sure I caught him out with a corax (but I have now forgotten what his blunder was :D)

3 he does not understand, alternatively is trying to twist, Italian law on circumstantial evidence.

The last is fundamental, actually. He thinks lousy evidence e.g. of Curatolo, can be made good if you combine it with other stuff and that Hellman made the basic error of looking at bits and pieces of the case serially instead of in combo, as if Stefanoni's science suddenly becomes OK again when read together with Quintavalle or some such nonsense.

The challenge is for any pro-guilt person to identify some examples of the evidence which gain weight if viewed in combination with each other but don't look like much on their own.

ETA I thought of no. 4 - Galati maintains, contrary to his own client's case, that they did not become suspects until 5.45 on 06 Nov. He hasn't read the brief!
 
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Circumstantial evidence need not seem immediately significant but it must be correct. A smudged fingerprint that is made in blood but isn't clear enough to tie it to someone shouldn't be added to the pile of evidence. I don't think that the bloody footprint on the mat is worth anything just because it "could" be someone the police suspect.

I don't believe that that footprint would have been allowed in this trial if it were held here. Even the Italians didn't include smudged prints that could have been someone they suspected.

Then there is part about inverse relationship of significance to the number of connections the evidence could have. The fact that Curatolo saw a couple in the plaza isn't significant because it could have been hundreds of couples. Since he didn't come forward with a description before the kids' pictures were widely distributed. I wonder if they ever used a line-up even as late as he recovered his repressed memory.

Anglo please post that section with inverse relationship again.
 
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