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At least God was smart enough to use base 10 for converting eternal time to mortal time. Us stupid Americans have to multiply by 1.8 and subtract 32 just to figure out the temperature in Canada. God's math is way easier.

Wonder why God didn't use 3, 7 or 40 for the time thing?
 
Jon. said:
I think that what Janadele is saying is that there are two time scales: earthly/mortal time, and "eternal time." It's not saying that anything is eternal, it's just a name. And while one day of "eternal time" passes, one thousand years of earthly/mortal/normal time passes.
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While I agree with you here, I honestly do not think that resolves the salient question. What does relative time scale have to do with eternity? Whether a day = day or a day = a thousand years, time is still eternal, right? Or am I missing something?
 
RandFan said:
While I agree with you here, I honestly do not think that resolves the salient question. What does relative time scale have to do with eternity? Whether a day = day or a day = a thousand years, time is still eternal, right? Or am I missing something?
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No, I think that "eternal time" is just a name. It certainly doesn't resolve the salient question (which is whether or not the serpent lied to A&E in the garden, and whether or not God lied to them), but it is one less nitpick, because I don't think using the name "eternal time" means that a day = an eternity, which is what some people seem to think it should mean (ETA: although I do see how the confusion arose, and Janadele could maybe have avoided it by using the phrase "God time" or "deitic time" or something).

It's all kind of silly, really; there's no evidence of a being for whom time passes differently. It's kind of like arguing about whether Hagrid had a mole to the left or right of his navel.
 
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Well, if you believe the world is ~6000 years old, then I guess anything above that is as good as "eternal".
 
RandFan said:
And they lived happily ever after. There is good money to be made promising people that you can grant them eternal life.
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And yet, if people were to actually stop and think what that would actually mean, they might not be so keen to have it!

Just as with people who yearn for a supernatural reality, where ghosts are biddable phenomena, and telepathy or telekinesis were commonplace, or "spirits" or "angels" etc were busily manipulating people's perceptions, etc... they never stop to think how unreliable their lives would be, how hellish such a world would actually be.

Shallow people yearning for a shallow depth.

:eek:

We got back from India at 2 a.m. the night before last. :D

So nice to be home again! Switched on the computer, and up came the last page I was on the day we left (it's an iMac!), and there were several responses on the page to my last post where I said we were just leaving... thanks to all those who wished us well on our trip! :)

It was a gruelling period of trains and cheap hotels, but we didn't get the "trots" (diarrhoea), so we coped well. Last time I was there was 37 years ago, and there has grown up since then a whole industry (or class of people with new ideas) in fleecing tourists. India is the original land of scams, but the sophistication and networking of these class of people in railroading you into their networks, keeping you from the official channels of enquiry/ticket buying (for trains) so they can charge you more, crap hotels overpriced, kickbacks for taxis for taking you to such hotels instead of where you were trying to go, by convincing you the area is closed off for special festivals... the imaginative manipulation of your efforts to go where you are trying to get to... you can almost admire them for their clever and winsome efforts... except that it's exhausting and costs you too much money... and they are not the people who really need your money, as they are already better off than the real poor people, who are more real and nicer people to encounter.

Sorry, fresh frustration on the last day. First day was hard too, same thing. Avoid Delhi at all costs, I say.

Finished with a week in Goa... that was lovely! ;):)

By the way, I now hate religion even more. No more leniency for colourful mythologies and exotic rituals etc. "Godmen" spouting self-serving admonitions to the populace, given respect just because they claim to be "holy".... it's a curse on the human condition!

Religions and religious "leaders" do not deserve the automatic respect they are leant in our culture. It's time they were removed from the constellation of "authorities" allowed a voice in important cultural/social discussions.

That observation from this trip is apropos this thread, it seems to me. :cool:
 
Sideroxylon said:
So members of your church generally don't have any problem with an earth and universe billions of years old. Nor do you have a problem with evolution?
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Don't claim to speak for Janadele, but since she doesn't exactly expound on her own opinions, I'll just jump in here to say that I personally have never met a YEC Mormon. Most of them are quite comfortable with the ages of the universe and of our earth.

Evolution, on the other hand, is a very different kettle of fish. I was pleased when Cat Tale stated earlier in the thread that she accepts evolution, but I don't believe I know any Mormons of that ilk, myself. Most, in my experience, fall back on the old canard of micro/macro evolution. "Yes, of course things evolve into different versions of the same species, but we certainly did not evolve from earlier life forms! God made us in him image in the Garden of Eden."

I should qualify this by stating that I generally try to avoid discussions about evolution with Mormons, b/c denying scientific fact in favor of silly fairy tales makes me weep for humanity, so there may be more of them out in Mormondom than I am aware. My family and close Mormon friends, however, do not accept evolution. :(
 
The Mormon I used to argue with on another board accepted evolution but also believed in Adam and Eve. He reconciled the two by suggesting that God, at some arbitrary point in time, chose a particular pair of primates to infuse pre-existing souls into. He handwaved away all the obvious objections to this idea.
 
I'm glad to hear that. Maybe evolution is more widely accepted in Mormonism than I am aware. :) Not an ideal solution, obviously, but it is significantly improved over the ones I'm close to.
 
RandFan said:
And they lived happily ever after. There is good money to be made promising people that you can grant them eternal life.
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Not just the money, dear boy.

If you want to make people slavishly obey all of your rules, even the silly ones that have absolutely no justification it can be quite hard. Unless of course you give them a huge reward, like money or power. Life after death with your loved ones is possibly the biggest reward there is, because I don't think anyone would pass up the chance to see their loved ones who have died and be granted youthful vigour.
 
Empress said:
Don't claim to speak for Janadele, but since she doesn't exactly expound on her own opinions, I'll just jump in here to say that I personally have never met a YEC Mormon.
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It's could be a regional thing. I was one and most people I knew were YEC or leaned YEC. To explain dinosaur bones YEC Mormons will typically site the scripture "matter unorganized" as if the Earth were created from the remnants of another world that did have dinosaurs. It's turtles all the way down I suppose.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
... Life after death with your loved ones is possibly the biggest reward there is, because I don't think anyone would pass up the chance to see their loved ones who have died and be granted youthful vigour.
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The chance awaits Mark, take it while you can. Procrastination and worldly matters steal the opportunity offered.
 
RandFan said:
It's could be a regional thing. I was one and most people I knew were YEC or leaned YEC. To explain dinosaur bones YEC Mormons will typically site the scripture "matter unorganized" as if the Earth were created from the remnants of another world that did have dinosaurs. It's turtles all the way down I suppose.
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So the Mormon Creator is into recycling. Nice.
 
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Janadele said:
The chance awaits Mark, take it while you can. Procrastination and worldly matters steal the opportunity offered.
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There you go Mark. But might I suggest that you also become a Catholic and a Jew and saying a prayer to Zeus and Ganesh can't hurt.

 
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Janadele said:
The chance awaits Mark, take it while you can.
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Balderdash


Janadele said:
Procrastination and worldly matters steal the opportunity offered.
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Rubbish. The opportunity of which you speak is a delusion.

Which in itself wouldn't be much of a problem, but the lengths to which bleevers will go to coerce others into sharing their delusions are the source of more woe and anguish than could ever be ascribed to more natural causes.

Religion is an abomination
 
RandFan said:
It's could be a regional thing. I was one and most people I knew were YEC or leaned YEC. To explain dinosaur bones YEC Mormons will typically site the scripture "matter unorganized" as if the Earth were created from the remnants of another world that did have dinosaurs. It's turtles all the way down I suppose.
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Oh dear. I was giving Mormomism too much credit. Now I has another sad. :(
 
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RandFan said:
There you go Mark. But might I suggest that you also become a Catholic and a Jew and saying a prayer to Zeus and Ganesh can't hurt.

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Might want to toss in a bow to Mecca just to be on the safe side.
 
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