JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Wait, so because some people said the faeries were genuine, the JFK photos are also faked?

It's not even that good. Robert's quote amounts to, "Someone said that someone else said the fairy photos were genuine." And yes, it's a red herring.

Robert originally hoped to show that Britain's "leading intellectual," Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, could be fooled by "unsophisticated" girls, therefore it's plausible to suppose that photo experts in the 1980s could be fooled by fake x-rays and autopsy photos fabricated by relatively simple means. At best it's a red herring.

Conan Doyle, while a popular literary figure, was not seen as an intellectual, although there's considerable evidence he believed himself to be. While he could create a logical-thinking character such as Sherlock Holmes, who was brilliant within the world Conan Doyle created for him and according to the events and details he contrived to frame it, he did not fare so well in the real world. He was often pig-headed, and was said to simply ignore everything that did not fit his preconceptions. Thus rather than exemplify the Holmesian ideal, he tried to fashion his own world into the contrived world of his short stories. Even the most well-quoted Holmes line, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth," speaks to the wrong-headed notion of inferential reasoning when trying to solve real-world mysteries.

As to the photographs and the fairies, Conan Doyle simply took the girls at their word when they presented themselves as innocent maidens who really knew nothing of photography, and cherry-picked what he wanted from expert opinion. In the final analysis, Conan Doyle really wanted to believe that the fairy photos were real, and in his carefully selective world where he was a supremely critical thinker (because he let no refutation through the door into it), he believed he had sewn up the case.

So it's not an example of a scientific man fooled by amateurs. It's an example of a gullible, credulous man fooled by people he was predisposed not to suspect, using simple tricks that others managed to see through.

Enough of Conan Doyle. HSCA authenticated the x-rays and photos. That much is black-and-white fact. Robert claimed otherwise, and he is a liar. What he likely means to argue is that the authentication should be disregarded because it was politically motivated or that it lacked a proper evidentiary or scientific basis. Arguing motivation is always the easy way to troll because it can be argued ad nauseam without coming to any resolution. Arguing it on scientific or evidentiary basis, in the JFK case, always means parading a bunch of charlatans around who claim, in their clearly unbiased and highly informed expert opinion, the autopsy photos and x-rays must have been faked, because of "anomalies" (i.e., things that the pseudo-experts don't understand).

And no, Jack White and fantasy computer processes don't count. Actual evidence please.

Yeah, we're not going back through Jack White and Tom Wilson. But if he stays true to form, he'll just say that his "forty medical witnesses" prove the photos fake. It's the same old indirect, inferential nonsense.
 
No. I never even quoted Randi, but I will do so now:

""Two unsophisticated girls, unfamiliar with photographic trickery, with no motive at all, have photographed fairies and a gnome in a glen. The photogrpahs have been examined by experts and declared unquestionably genuine and beyond any possibility of fakery" -- James Randi from "Flim Flam", Page 20

Comment: Thus, the photgraphs of the fairies are just as true, just as honest and just as genuine as are the autopsy photos of JFK.

Did the autopsy photos show an obvious cardboard cutout of Kennedy?
 
And yet here you are still posting walls of text to debunk him. :rolleyes:
Tell me Jay, do you go up to the guy in the street with the sandwich board with "the end is nigh" written on it explaining to him in great detail that he's wrong?
Sigh.

JB, it's not much different than what you do with Robert-Arthur: Menard (or however he's styling himself these days). There are a number of reasons to demonstrate, as Jay is doing, that the trolls have no validity:
  • In the absence of contradiction, the lies and liars win. This is particularly true for the JFK assassination, as even I have encountered otherwise sensible people who only know the CTs.
  • As mentioned upthread, it also educates the general audience (not only on the primary topic, but on related topics such as photogrammetry). Jay, in particular, does this very well, and is much admired for it.
  • Finally, there's the entertainment factor.

Yes, we know that RP's MO in particular looks like trolling. (I say looks like because we don't really know what's going on in his mind). However, until his effluvia is countered it can sometimes look convincing.

Oh, and there's somebody wrong on the Internets :D

ETA: While it's not as harmful as Mr. Menard's scams, people do loose money to this scam - JFK conspiracy books, for example, not to mention that notorious Oliver Stone movie.
 
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Contrary to how Robert has misleadingly framed the quote, Randi is summarizing Conan Doyle's claims, made in his book on fairies. Randi is not expounding the facts as he sees them but rather the "facts" as Conan Doyle has claimed them to be. And Randi continues:


He then goes on to dismantle the case,

Wow! So if Randi is correct, and you are correct, that would mean those fairies must actually be fake!
Gotta hand it to ya. Just can't fool an expert in photogrammetry.
 
Gentlemen I think we can agree that Robert's inept trolling needs to be countered and that we each counter it in a way particular to ourselves.
 
Wow! So if Randi is correct, and you are correct, that would mean those fairies must actually be fake!
Gotta hand it to ya. Just can't fool an expert in photogrammetry.

Well I have to say Robert you are an expert on the many aspects of being, and acting the fool.
 
You might just as well have. You said Randi described Conan Doyle as a "leading intellectual." I said no, Conan Doyle was an avowed mystic and spiritualist.

Naturally I have asked you to substantiate this claim from Randi's book. And just as naturally, you cannot do it.

Another swing and a miss:

"To understand Sir Arthur's impact on the matter under discussion, it must be recognized that he was considered an absolutely unassailable authority on any subject..."-- James Randi, P. 21 "Flim Flam"

Careful. Three strikes and you're out.
 
Another swing and a miss:

"To understand Sir Arthur's impact on the matter under discussion, it must be recognized that he was considered an absolutely unassailable authority on any subject..."-- James Randi, P. 21 "Flim Flam"

Careful. Three strikes and you're out.

Robert if you like baseball then I can assure you that not only are you not at bat you're the guy outside the stadium holding a sign saying that baseball is a marxist sin
 
Another swing and a miss...

And another declaration of victory.

"To understand Sir Arthur's impact on the matter under discussion, it must be recognized that he was considered an absolutely unassailable authority on any subject..."

...by his fellow psychics and spiritualists. The part you left out from several pages earlier in the book.

Randi continues:

"An excellent and popular author, yes. A great thinker, no. Doyle was dependent on a special, manufactured world for his conclusions to be correct. Such a special world was entirely fictional,..."

Now isn't that what I said before?

Careful. Three strikes and you're out.

I've already caught you in three lies in as many pages. Your only defense is a veiled personal attack.
 
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Cardboard cutout? Oh, balderdash. I'll bet your just one of those Deep Thinkers who don't even believe in fairies.

The herring is cherry red at this point.

You lied about my declarations of victory. Irrelevant, but a lie nonetheless. You lied about Randi's characterization of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- twice, but similarly irrelevant. Keep picking those cherries, though. I'll catch you every time.

But you lied also about the HSCA's evidentiary assessment of the photographs and x-rays, which is the only matter that's remotely on-topic. That's a black-and-white lie. You said one thing, and the ink of the HSCA findings says diametrically the opposite. You can't get any lie-ier than that.

You're still obsessed with fairies apparently because they provide you with an endless series of cheap-shot personal attacks against your critics. Since it's the third time through most of the JFK stuff at least it's providing variety -- if entirely off-topic. What Conan Doyle thought of some old photographs has nothing to do with the fact that your attempts to discredit or undermine the objective evidence in the case in favor of your cherry-picked subjective opinions have fallen flat again.
 
Gentlemen I think we can agree that Robert's inept trolling needs to be countered and that we each counter it in a way particular to ourselves.

By and large, I do understand that.

I've learned more about JFK, Apollo, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 because of the great efforts that Jay and others have put forward in telling the truth in such great detail.

When all a certain poster can come up with is an argument on whether farie pictures may or may not be fakes, then we've hit bottom.

Robert has run out of ammo and the only thing missing is a bike-fixing vet who speaks seven languages to decipher LHO's bowel movements to bring things full circle.
 
I've learned more about JFK, Apollo, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 because of the great efforts that Jay and others have put forward in telling the truth in such great detail.

Thank you; it's good to know the efforts are appreciated.

When all a certain poster can come up with is an argument on whether farie pictures may or may not be fakes, then we've hit bottom.

This type of argument hits bottom several times throughout its life. It tends to bounce across the bottom, suffering several impacts along the way and rarely reaching productive altitude. Trolls and desperate fringe claimants share one thing. Ironically it's motivated by almost opposite goals. The troll just wants to spin the thread, so he'll pursue almost any marginally relevant line of discussion just to eke out another ten pages. The desperado just wants to win some part of the argument, so he can claim a victory. So red herrings dominate both kinds of interlocution.

Robert has run out of ammo...

More specifically he is dusting off the same spent ammo he had way back on page 100. 115 pages later, and a couple of fringe resets in the middle, he's just firing the same bullets.

...and the only thing missing is a bike-fixing vet who speaks seven languages to decipher LHO's bowel movements to bring things full circle.

Careful: if you say that five times, he appears in the mirror.
 
"In the absence of contradiction, the lies and liars win. This is particularly true for the JFK assassination, as even I have encountered otherwise sensible people who only know the CTs."

GRM: In my 27 years of researching the Jeffrey MacDonald murder case, I've experienced this scenario a hundred times over. Prior to researching the Jeffrey MacDonald murder case, my true crime obsession was the JFK case. I corresponded with several book authors from both sides of the fence and found the claims of conspiracy theorists to be without merit. Those who believe in MacDonald's innocence have formulated a propaganda machine that uses the media and discussion boards to put forth a variety of dubious claims.

Trust me, if the only responses to the lies put forth by MacDonald advocates were CID/FBI investigators/lawyers affiliated with the DOJ, journalistic vultures like Errol Morris would have obtained enough financial backing to create a documentary arguing for MacDonald's innocence. Whether it be Lee Harvey Oswald or Jeffrey MacDonald, responding to the unsubstantiated claims of those who advocate for psychopaths is a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

"As mentioned upthread, it also educates the general audience"

GRM: Exactly. I created a website on the MacDonald case in 2007, and educating the general public was the main reason why I got the site up and running.

"not only on the primary topic, but on related topics such as photogrammetry"

GRM: Speaking of photogrammetry, didn't Jack White ask the HSCA to explain to him what photogrammetry was? Classic.

"Finally, there's the entertainment factor."

GRM: Absolutely. I've only recently posted on this thread, but I get the same kind of enjoyment out of rebutting Robert's nonsense as I do when responding to MacDonald groupies on MacDonald case discussion boards.
 
Ah yes the comedy gold here is excellent but I do hope Jay will cool his jets a bit. Right now he's using a double barreled nitro express rifle against an intellectual rabbit.
 
So where is the evidence of any alteration or reconstruction in any autopsy photographs other than the sanitization that one of the photographers discussedwith the HSCA? (Robert should know all about this as he selected lines from her testimony stating the photographs she was shown were not the particular ones she took but for some reason neglected to quote her explanation of why).

There is none.

So where is the evidence of any alteration to any photographic or film evidence at all?

There is none.

How do you create a latent print you then retrieve with powder froma corpse?

You can't.

Where is the evidence that objective evidence was buried, destroyed or concealed?

There is none.

Where is the evidence for any other shooters?

None.

Does Robert have 40 medical witnesses that describe anything that is not contained in the WC,autopsy or other docuentary record?

Provably not, as has been shown. Contradctions and mutualy exclusive descriptionshave never been rationlised either. Testimony changes and alters over time. Memory is faliable, subjective description is faliable, and subjective understanding of others is faliable.

Is there any evidence LHO was in any way truthful when claiming to be a patsy?
Nope.

Was he a spy?
No. And if he was why didhe bumble into being a patsy so happily?

So there remains no objective or documentary evidence of a cover up, a second shooter, or any complicate party other than LHO? With the exception of unansweredquestions about the Cubans egging him on, there is no evidence of faked, altered or otherwise manipulated evidence and the later claims of witnesses, be they medical,technical or any other kind, can be shown to be false for understandable and mundane reasons with out a false dichtomy of if they were liars or mistaken.

Does anybody other than Mister Prey disagree?
 
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