Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

It is true. 98% of the lawyers give the other 2% a bad name. Wow

I guess you missed the part about the ILE being less than competent. Could you give me a quote where Massei makes such a comment?

No I didn't and no I can't. Am I right in thinking there is supposed to be one of these prints made by Amanda in Filomena's room? If so, then if you are right she must be guilty of murder since it means she tracked blood into Filomena's room where she cannot possibly have failed to notice the burglary had there been one.

ETA I like the (possibly apocryphal) story about the lawyer cross examining an expert witness about his examination of the victim's brain, stored in a jar:

Q. did you form the view he was dead?
A. no, I thought he might be alive and practising law somewhere.

 

[Bill Williams]

An alternative view of Mignini and Raffaele, an article from TJMK, Nothing like a bit of balance.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/an_overview_from_italy_2_on_current_perceptions_in_italy_and_big_probl/

Balance? Peter Q. runs an interactive website, and he bans people from posting who do not fit into his version of "the balance"?

Ok. I've heard many definitions of "balance", so I guess this one will be added.

 

[anglolawyer]

This part?
So it was that the Public Minister Giuliano Mignini became a target. He’s a Perugian whom the Perugians know as the dominus of the other judicial case – this also is, yes, entirely local – about which everybody talks and knows, but always in a low voice: the death of doctor Francesco Narducci, the one suspected of having ties to the crimes of the Monster of Florence. From the judicial point of view that was - by half – just another hole-in-the-water [a failure] for which some critics have hastily put the blame on some alleged lunacy of the public minister.

But… however… meanwhile, this [Naducci] corpse-swap was indeed found to have been for sure, a kind of unique case in the criminal history of the country. And, for what concerns the recent acquittals of those characters involved in this death, well, after almost a year and a half we are still waiting for the verdict motivations. All of the suspects were esteemed high-class professionals. That’s a perfect mix of strange deaths, sex, lead-astray investigations, and Masonry; this is in the city with the highest number of Masonic lodges in Italy.

Vaime sighs: “Masonry is something alien from me, but I have many friends who are in it. In Perugia it works as a compensation chamber for various powers, but also as an effort for the surge of the spirit to many decent people. Masters, masons and “33”, but all of them decent Perugians”. Masonry is considered a local specialty, just like the bruschetta or the Etruscan arch.

Thanks Grinder. That certainly redresses the balance for me.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

civilization

An alternative view of Mignini and Raffaele, an article from TJMK, Nothing like a bit of balance.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/an_overview_from_italy_2_on_current_perceptions_in_italy_and_big_probl/

CoulsdonUK,

When asked what he thought of Western civilization, Ghandi was said to have replied, "I think it would be a good idea." With respect to balance at TJfMK, I feel the same way.

 

[Grinder]

No I didn't and no I can't. Am I right in thinking there is supposed to be one of these prints made by Amanda in Filomena's room? If so, then if you are right she must be guilty of murder since it means she tracked blood into Filomena's room where she cannot possibly have failed to notice the burglary had there been one.

The blob in Filomena's wasn't a footprint but IIRC did have Meredith's DNA in it as well as Amanda's. At the time it came out it was one of the most troubling pieces. Now, everything is tainted by the shoddy job done by the ILE but had they been competent this mixed DNA in F's room would have been even more troubling. The curious thing would be why they didn't find more mixed DNA with other household members.

It seems that Amanda is a DNA shedding machine.

ETA I like the (possibly apocryphal) story about the lawyer cross examining an expert witness about his examination of the victim's brain, stored in a jar:

Q. did you form the view he was dead?
A. no, I thought he might be alive and practising law somewhere.

 

[anglolawyer]

The blob in Filomena's wasn't a footprint but IIRC did have Meredith's DNA in it as well as Amanda's. At the time it came out it was one of the most troubling pieces. Now, everything is tainted by the shoddy job done by the ILE but had they been competent this mixed DNA in F's room would have been even more troubling. The curious thing would be why they didn't find more mixed DNA with other household members.

It seems that Amanda is a DNA shedding machine.

Was the blob revealed by luminol?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Balance? Peter Q. runs an interactive website, and he bans people from posting who do not fit into his version of "the balance"?

Ok. I've heard many definitions of "balance", so I guess this one will be added.

I am not part of the hyperbole, accusations and counter accustions that ebbs and flows between the warring web sites or the individuals who administer them. Nonetheless, it is an alternative view and it does provide citations from Italian media.

I found the comments relating to the charges and first level trial of the Monster of Florence case against Giuttari and Mignini; and I quote “In fact they nullified the whole trial, not only the previous one in terms of judgment, but also the preliminary hearing, and the indictment; and even the request of indictment. “
Were you aware of these developments with Monster of Florence?

Do you have any other views of the actual article?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Not the first place I normally go for 'balance' but as I cannot access that site and it is sort of customary around here anyway, why not quote any relevant extracts from this article that you think provide balance to whatever it is you think needs it?

Just type in TJMK in your search engine of choice.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

When asked what he thought of Western civilization, Ghandi was said to have replied, "I think it would be a good idea." With respect to balance at TJfMK, I feel the same way.

Halides1

Did you actually read the link? It's not an issue for me whether you have I only ask for clarification

 

[anglolawyer]

Just type in TJMK in your search engine of choice.

Thanks. That worked. I found this by James Raper:

Certainly as compared to the incredibly high legal standard of the Galati Appeal, it appears that the accused, their lawyers, and Hellmann & Zanetti are all seriously outclassed.

That is not 'balance'. It is drivel. Mr Raper has been gulled by a lot of long words and pretentious legalese. I have read plenty of PQ's jottings and find it remarkable the anyone pays attention to anything he says. Anyway, please copy and paste here anything which you consider relevant to the discussion of Mignini's character and integrity.

I was reading in Follain today that he went to bed at 10.30 p.m. on 05 Nov, got a call half an hour later asking him to go to the questura and went immediately. If that is true then he was up to his armpits in the interrogations. I would be interested in something that balanced that.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Thanks. That worked. I found this by James Raper:



That is not 'balance'. It is drivel. Mr Raper has been gulled by a lot of long words and pretentious legalese. I have read plenty of PQ's jottings and find it remarkable the anyone pays attention to anything he says. Anyway, please copy and paste here anything which you consider relevant to the discussion of Mignini's character and integrity.

I was reading in Follain today that he went to bed at 10.30 p.m. on 05 Nov, got a call half an hour later asking him to go to the questura and went immediately. If that is true then he was up to his armpits in the interrogations. I would be interested in something that balanced that.

The article was written by Machiavelli/Yummi, hope that helps.

 

[anglolawyer]

The article was written by Machiavelli/Yummi, hope that helps.

Well, post the good bits and let's discuss them.

 

[acbytesla]

I think the Luminol prints did come from Amanda's foot and were made in blood. I think she picked up the blood from the mat when she stepped on with wet feet. I think that when she shuffled her right foot came off the mat and made the prints or maybe she gave up on the mat and walked around a bit.

I think the PLE over-applied the Luminol and the bright glow seen by the technicians and photographed was a result of that over-application. Luminol applied correctly is known to interfere with subsequent testing and when over-applied certainly makes it worse.

It is also very possible that the same crack team of technicians didn't do the TMB test correctly either.

The idea that someone slipped their right foot under a radiator or stepped on a roast beef sandwich with horseradish on it seems less likely.

I would expect there to be far more prints found if there was some common substance around the house that would produce the prints.

It is precisely the role of defense to give as likely or more likely causes for "evidence" than what the prosecution is positing.

I don't recall the prosecution saying so, but it could be argued that the source of the substance leaving the prints came from clean-up material used in the shower that night.

Stefanoni certainly was a part of the prosecution. The police and prosecution work hand in glove in Italy even more so than here.

I think that Stefanoni wasn't competent in this case and certainly had great difficulty remembering what and how tests were done.

While you do offer an innocent explanation how the blood was transferred to the floor, how do you come to this conclusion given the NEGATIVE results of the TMB? That doesn't sound logical or reasonable to me.

As for Stefanoni, you don't think she reviewed her own notes before her testimony? You're arguing that she was incompetent instead of corrupt. Granted, I can't prove she was corrupt, but I don't buy that she didn't remember. A person in her position is paid to be thorough.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Thanks Grinder. That certainly redresses the balance for me.

Anglolawyer\Grinder

Interesting I read the whole masonic thing as Mignini was not part of it and that the Monster in Florence case against him arose because of regional politics in the judiciary. If he were Mr Big in the local masonry I wonder how “they/he” allowed Hellmann and Zanetti to preside.

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglolawyer\Grinder

Interesting I read the whole masonic thing as Mignini was not part of it and that the Monster in Florence case against him arose because of regional politics in the judiciary. If he were Mr Big in the local masonry I wonder how “they/he” allowed Hellmann and Zanetti to preside.

What balance are you redressing? Who here is saying that the whole thing was a masonic conspiracy?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

overapplied luminol

I think the Luminol prints did come from Amanda's foot and were made in blood. I think she picked up the blood from the mat when she stepped on with wet feet. I think that when she shuffled her right foot came off the mat and made the prints or maybe she gave up on the mat and walked around a bit.

I think the PLE over-applied the Luminol and the bright glow seen by the technicians and photographed was a result of that over-application. Luminol applied correctly is known to interfere with subsequent testing and when over-applied certainly makes it worse.

Grinder,

"Our findings indicated that luminol did not adversely effect the PCR testing and did not interfere with the PT and TMB presumptive tests for blood."
Ann Marie Gross,1 M.S.; Katy A. Harris,2 B.S.; and Gary L. Kaldun,3 B.S
"The Effect of Luminol on Presumptive Tests and DNA Analysis Using the Polymerase Chain Reaction," J Forensic Sci 1999;44(4):837–840. That having been said, I believe that there is a small, but nonzero chance that the prints were from blood/water from Amanda's time in the bathroom. However, nobody has any ******* business concluding that they are blood. Period. Full stop. There was no confirmatory test, and without that, there is no justification for assuming that they are.

I continue to believe that you may conflating two issues, one being what caused the luminol reaction and the other being why there are so few footprints. I agree that the luminol was overapplied, but I would add that the overapplication makes it more difficult to make measurements. Along with the lack of reference footprints from others who lived or frequented the flat, this problem makes attributing them to Amanda or Raffaele an extremely tenuous argument. Along with rust, soil or plant matter are possible explanations. I think it is OK for us to examine the question of what the substance was an an intellectual exercise, but the footprints as evidence are worthless, and Comodi deserves to have her mouth washed out with lemon juice for her twisted logic.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

good idea

Well, post the good bits and let's discuss them.

That will be a short post.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

What balance are you redressing? Who here is saying that the whole thing was a masonic conspiracy?

My post was merely pointing out that not everyone thinks of Mignini as the devil especially in Italy, not to mention the possible difficulties for Raffaele relating to passages from his book.

Anyway to counter some the allegations here attributed to Mignini actions I thought it was worthwhile pointing out that everything related to the Monster of Florence charges, I quote once more ” In fact they nullified the whole trial, not only the previous one in terms of judgment, but also the preliminary hearing, and the indictment; and even the request of indictment.”

 

[acbytesla]

Grinder,

"Our findings indicated that luminol did not adversely effect the PCR testing and did not interfere with the PT and TMB presumptive tests for blood."
Ann Marie Gross,1 M.S.; Katy A. Harris,2 B.S.; and Gary L. Kaldun,3 B.S
"The Effect of Luminol on Presumptive Tests and DNA Analysis Using the Polymerase Chain Reaction," J Forensic Sci 1999;44(4):837–840. That having been said, I believe that there is a small, but nonzero chance that the prints were from blood/water from Amanda's time in the bathroom. However, nobody has any ******* business concluding that they are blood. Period. Full stop. There was no confirmatory test, and without that, there is no justification for assuming that they are.
I continue to believe that you may conflating two issues, one being what caused the luminol reaction and the other being why there are so few footprints. I agree that the luminol was overapplied, but I would add that the overapplication makes it more difficult to make measurements. Along with the lack of reference footprints from others who lived or frequented the flat, this problem makes attributing them to Amanda or Raffaele an extremely tenuous argument. Along with rust, soil or plant matter are possible explanations. I think it is OK for us to examine the question of what the substance was an an intellectual exercise, but the footprints as evidence are worthless, and Comodi deserves to have her mouth washed out with lemon juice for her twisted logic.

I found this line a little curious Chris. It is not that there wasn't a confirmatory test, but that the confirmatory test proved to be negative.

What would your perspective be if Luminol only was applied and no other presumptive tests were performed?

 

[anglolawyer]

I found this line a little curious Chris. It is not that there wasn't a confirmatory test, but that the confirmatory test proved to be negative.

What would your perspective be if Luminol only was applied and no other presumptive tests were performed?

Unless I have been misunderstanding everything here (quite possible) TMB is also presumptive. It can tell you something is not blood but it can't tell you what it is. For that you need a confirmatory test. If that's wrong I'm blowing my brains out.