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skyrider44, oddly enough tithing is wide-spread and forms part of the 'prosperity' message advocated by hugely popular preachers.

Note the following:

"Mormons give to their churches at a much higher rate than other Christian denominations, three times as much in some cases. . . . [Mormons] are required to give 10% of their incomes to remain in good standing and almost 80% donate, according to a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life." (Tampa Bay Times, "Why Mormons are the most likely to tithe," Leonora LaPeter Anton, Feb. 5, 2012).

Please identify members of any other Christian church who pay tithing to the extent that Mormons do.
 
Note the following:

"Mormons give to their churches at a much higher rate than other Christian denominations, three times as much in some cases. . . . [Mormons] are required to give 10% of their incomes to remain in good standing and almost 80% donate, according to a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life." (Tampa Bay Times, "Why Mormons are the most likely to tithe," Leonora LaPeter Anton, Feb. 5, 2012).

Please identify members of any other Christian church who pay tithing to the extent that Mormons do.
It's difficult to make such comparisons but The Church of Scientology has a pretty hefty financial requirement.

About.com said:
source However, Scientologists who are interested in accomplishing the major goals of Scientology – to become Clear and develop their capabilities as Operating Thetans – should expect to be investing heavily in their spirituality. Costs can vary considerably depending upon the needs of the individual, but a rough estimate suggests you’ll be paying $128,000 to reach Clear, another $33,000 to reach OT III, and an additional $100,000 to $130,000 to reach OT VIII, which is the highest level currently available.
That's $261,000 - $291.000.

Median housold income in America is roughly $50,000 per anum. 10% of that is $5,000 per anum. To reach $261,000 a person would have to loyaly pay tithing for 52 years. Of course we would have to adjust for inflation but bear in mind also that tithing is stretched out over a life time where as scientologists pay large sums up front.
 
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Why does the LDS Church assume Brigham Young was wrong?
:) Exactly! Great question. If we can't trust Brigham Young to hear god properly why should we assume current prophets can hear god properly? Why should we accept anything that any prophet says if it cannot be trusted? Does god mumble? Skyrider?
 
Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray? Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets? Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

Your rejoinder will be that LDS prophets claim to receive communication and direction from God, and God is never wrong. True, God is never wrong, but those called to do His work in mortality are not infallible; i.e., they are, indeed, sometimes wrong.

I'm not following your line of argument. It seems to be taking several positions at once, hinting both that Woodruff's proclamation was true because of a couple short terms by prophets, and that it was false because prophets are indeed fallible and can lead the church astray.

So I'll just make several unconnected responses to the various points:

Either refusing the priesthood based on race was correct for over a hundred years, or God did let prophets lead the church astray for several generations. The D&C says, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray... If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place..." That's crystal clear that the current prophet would be removed, not a future one a century later.

The fact that some prophets had a short time in office seems pointless cherry-picking, when Brigham Young had a long time in office. There will naturally be a random variation in lifespans and a human tendency to find patterns in randomness. The fact remains that church presidents successfully kept blacks from having the priesthood, despite Woodruff saying God would not let the president lead the church astray. If one accepts Woodruff's statement as true, the obvious conclusion as far as I can see is that the church was not "astray" at that time and that God did feel blacks should be banned from the priesthood until 1978. It's politically incorrect, but it's a more logical consequence of accepting the D&C as true, than claiming that the church was being led astray all those years (which requires believing that Woodruff was leading the church astray when he claimed the church could not be led astray).

Errors in judgment by scientists are accepted because scientists don't make claims that they're either infallible or will be removed from power, like Woodruff did.

The idea that morals are self-correcting doesn't really make sense, because morals differ from a shared reality. A scientist in another culture can replicate an experiment and if the controls are the same, the result will be the same. But how does one design experiments to falsify "lying is morally wrong?" or "gay sex is a sin"? The most one can do is make other claims: "In this culture, most people think..." or "Under these conditions, it causes this specific benefit and this specific harm..." But without an objective definition of morality or sin, there's no way to "self-correct" to get closer to what actually is moral or sinful. That's why preachers make proclamations which require faith.
 
Not so.
The first missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the Islands of the Pacific were sent by the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1843. Since then innumerable worthy LDS males of Polynesian descent have received the LDS Priesthood.
Polynesians descend from Lehi and are of the House of Israel. Alma 63:8 of the Book of Mormon refers to their ancestors.

No, Polynesian people do not descend from the house of Lehi or any other semitic ancestry. Even without the indisputable genetic evidence of the fiction of said claim, the archaeological and anthropological evidence places it in the realm of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

So why weren't men of sub-Saharan ancestry, the same people who were enslaved in the United States and who have been subjected to racial discrimination to this day, allowed to hold the priesthood? Why in 1978 did the LDS alter its position of discriminating against men of black African descent?

Under the racial restrictions that lasted from the presidency of Brigham Young until 1978, persons with any black African ancestry could not hold the priesthood in the LDS Church and could not participate in most temple ordinances, including the endowment and celestial marriage. Black people were permitted to be members of the church, and to participate in some temple ordinances, such as baptism for the dead.[30]
The racial restriction policy was applied to black Africans, persons of black African descent, and any one with mixed race that included any black African ancestry. The policy was not applied to Native Americans, Hispanics, Melanesians or Polynesians.
Source.
Saying, "But there were other people whom we didn't discriminate against" doesn't lessen the immorality of the discrimination against another group.

From the official declaration to the press released by the First Presidency on June 8, 1978:
Accordingly, all worthy male members of the church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color.
"Race or color." From Brigham Young until 1978 the LDS was excluding people from the priesthood based on race and color.
 
Note the following:

"Mormons give to their churches at a much higher rate than other Christian denominations, three times as much in some cases. . . . [Mormons] are required to give 10% of their incomes to remain in good standing and almost 80% donate, according to a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life." (Tampa Bay Times, "Why Mormons are the most likely to tithe," Leonora LaPeter Anton, Feb. 5, 2012).

Please identify members of any other Christian church who pay tithing to the extent that Mormons do.

Why are you trying to derail the thread with these figures?
Are you equating donations with piety?
 
Why are you trying to derail the thread with these figures?
Are you equating donations with piety?

As evidenced in this thread, it would seem that donation level is linked with gullibility.
 
Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray? Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets? Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

Your rejoinder will be that LDS prophets claim to receive communication and direction from God, and God is never wrong. True, God is never wrong, but those called to do His work in mortality are not infallible; i.e., they are, indeed, sometimes wrong.

As has been said many times before:
SCIENTISTS DON'T CLAIM TO BE SPEAKING FOR AN INFALLIBLE ENTITY.
Anyone who has evidence to the contrary of a scientist's claim can cause it to be corrected, even if the scientist making the claim doesn't accept the evidence. If it's convincing enough, science as a whole will accept it. I don't think Fred Hoyle ever accepted the Big Bang model. It didn't matter. He didn't have to die for that model to be accepted.
A PROPHET CLAIMS TO BE CONVEYING THE LITERAL WORD OF A PERFECT GOD.

If you agree that they aren't, then why should anyone pay any more attention to them than anyone else expressing an opinion?

How useful is a clock that strikes thirteen?
 
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Slick diversion there skyrider44. Will you be addressing them there horses, steel, and barley, or will you jump on something else hoping we will forget?
 
Note the following:

"Mormons give to their churches at a much higher rate than other Christian denominations, three times as much in some cases. . . . [Mormons] are required to give 10% of their incomes to remain in good standing and almost 80% donate, according to a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life." (Tampa Bay Times, "Why Mormons are the most likely to tithe," Leonora LaPeter Anton, Feb. 5, 2012).

Please identify members of any other Christian church who pay tithing to the extent that Mormons do.

All I have is anecdote--although I will point out that there is a wide gulf between all members being 'required' to 'thithe', and '80%' of them 'donating'...

I can only speak for individual churches, and those only for 20+ years ago, but if 80% of all mormons are, indeed, giving a minimum of 10% to the church, that is indeed a large number; somewhat larger than any but one of the specific churches with which I had direct experience, and for which I had access to reasonably dependable figures.

Please identify the specific anachronisms in the BoM which you claim have been proven by mormon archaeology actually to exist. At the very least, please post a link to the thread where you have already identified the specific anachronisms in pre-Colombian America that have been demonstrated by mormon archaeology actually to exist, if you have already done so.
 
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Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets?

If you don't know the difference by now, I doubt it's possible to explain it to you.
 
Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets?

Janadele, do you agree with skyrider44 that your supposed prophets, in claiming to speak for god, make mistakes?
 
It's difficult to make such comparisons but The Church of Scientology has a pretty hefty financial requirement.

That's $261,000 - $291.000.

Median housold income in America is roughly $50,000 per anum. 10% of that is $5,000 per anum. To reach $261,000 a person would have to loyaly pay tithing for 52 years. Of course we would have to adjust for inflation but bear in mind also that tithing is stretched out over a life time where as scientologists pay large sums up front.

My challenge was to identify a Christian church whose members pay as much in tithing as do Latter-day Saints. The Church of Scientology has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. Sources? Enter "Is the Church of Scientology a Christian Religion?" into your search engine, then follow the links.
 
My challenge was to identify a Christian church whose members pay as much in tithing as do Latter-day Saints. The Church of Scientology has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. Sources? Enter "Is the Church of Scientology a Christian Religion?" into your search engine, then follow the links.
What does Christianity have to do with anything? This looks like special pleading. Could you explain?
 
My challenge was to identify a Christian church whose members pay as much in tithing as do Latter-day Saints.

What is the purpose of the challenge?

If you think that a religion whose followers pay more means the religion is more true, then I don't see the point of limiting it just to Christianity.

But I'm also not sure why any particular sacrifice by members is a litmus test. We could pick any particular point besides donations and different religions would be winners: the one whose members have the tightest dietary restrictions, the one whose members give up the most sex, the one whose members wear the most restrictive clothes, the one with the most members who die for their religion, and so on.

On an objective basis, I'd say the personal sacrifice of Mormons for their religion has dropped dramatically. Those who were burnt out of Missouri or who pushed handcarts over the plains or who went to jail for polygamy would laugh at a sacrifice for the church as small as only having to give 10% of their income.
 
What does Christianity have to do with anything? This looks like special pleading. Could you explain?

It's painfully obvious that for you Christianity doesn't have anything to do with anything. Be that as it may, my challenge was to identify a CHRISTIAN church whose members pay as much in tithing as do Latter-day Saints. You responded by citing some figures Scientologists pay to their "church." Do you actually believe that the Church of Scientology is a Christian religion? Whoa!

"Special pleading"? Hilarious.
 
It's painfully obvious that for you Christianity doesn't have anything to do with anything. Be that as it may, my challenge was to identify a CHRISTIAN church whose members pay as much in tithing as do Latter-day Saints. You responded by citing some figures Scientologists pay to their "church." Do you actually believe that the Church of Scientology is a Christian religion? Whoa!

"Special pleading"? Hilarious.

No, you tried to say that the level of tithing indicated a religion's truthiness. Your special pleading is in saying that only applies to Christian religions. Using your criteria, Scientology is truthier than Christianity. Why did you attempt to fallaciously want it to only apply to Christian religions?

Special pleading. Sad.
 
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