Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton,

I just reviewed the original "death sentence" post (#3111) and I am left puzzled. Perhaps you can tell me what you meant by it, and just ignore any back and forth since on this thread.

Your post was in reply to a statement that even if vaccines increased one's chances of developing autism, autism would be better than dying of an infectious disease. You replied, "If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?" - your bolding. What did you intend to say, if you didn't intend to dispute the first post? Honestly, I'm not trying to put you on the spot- just trying to figure it out.

I should have said "If you knew today that you would become severely autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Insisting mildly autistic people were included in my question was, as usual, disingenuous.

 

[Giordano]

Post deleted

 

[BazBear]

I should have said "If you knew today that you would become severely autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Insisting mildly autistic people were included in my question was, as usual, disingenuous.

You're the one who left out the word severly in the post that people were questioning you about, and then you let it hang for some time without clarifying what you meant. We're not mind readers, Clayton.

 

[Matthew Cline]

Think of what's being done. Remove the weakened virus or killed virus material and just inject the baby with the rest of each "vaccine." Inventory what entered the baby. You think anybody without some sort of agenda would inject an infant with those foreign materials?

First, someone who injects a baby with nine full vaccines would have a totally different agenda than one who injected the vaccines minus the antigens (bacteria/virus/etc), as there's this concept known as "risk/benefit ratio".

Second, when you say "agenda", do you mean simply mean "they want to make a profit off of selling vaccines"? Because "agenda" isn't a word that's usually use to describe a profit motive. Do you perhaps mean that they're intentionally harming the children? If not that, then what do you mean?

 

[littleelvira]

Clayton,

Why do you assume that the "pro-vaxers" here aren't vaccinated and/or haven't had their families vaccinated? I been immunized with every vaccine recommended for my age. My children were vaccinated with just the schedule that leaves you so horrified! They never had a bad reaction (except for temporary arm soreness that was instantly compensated of by cuddles and ice cream). They are now completely healthy adults!

Oh, but I forgot! Vaccines cause "silent injuries" that are never detected, even in a massive study by the National Academies (not to mention all the other scientific studies that have been performed over the years). I guess "silent" is the same as non-existent in this context.

Well you cannot say there aren't problems, usually idiosyncratic reactions, allergic reactions and then batched problems(lots of people affected given a problem with the vaccine design such as the ol' swine flu caper perpetrated on us way back). I am a pro vexer myself, but you cannot argue there's never a price to pay. Recall the rare odd case of polio with some of the early vaccines.

Great topic!

 

[crhkrebs]

I must have missed that. In which post did he say that? Because that would explain a lot.

#3727. Enjoy.

 

[Estellea]

Well you cannot say there aren't problems, usually idiosyncratic reactions, allergic reactions and then batched problems(lots of people affected given a problem with the vaccine design such as the ol' swine flu caper perpetrated on us way back). I am a pro vexer myself, but you cannot argue there's never a price to pay. Recall the rare odd case of polio with some of the early vaccines.

Great topic!

That's a strawman as not a single post in this debacle of a thread has claimed that vaccines are completely risk-free. Clayton's evidence-free assertion that vaccines cause autism is the topic, or was, or should be or could be or somesuch.

Este

 

[littleelvira]

That's a strawman as not a single post in this debacle of a thread has claimed that vaccines are completely risk-free. Clayton's evidence-free assertion that vaccines cause autism is the topic, or was, or should be or could be or somesuch.

Este

Didn't mean to imply that was the case. I was more or less stating the obvious. I mostly wanted to say, Great thread! Sorry if I mislead you.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Didn't mean to imply that was the case. I was more or less stating the obvious. I mostly wanted to say, Great thread! Sorry if I mislead you.

Thank you.

 

[Giordano]

Welcome to the forum, littleelvira!

Yes, of course vaccines aren't perfect and the key question is the balance between the small risks of the vaccines verses the big risks of the diseases they protect against. I would be very pleased if we could discuss vaccines with Clayton at that level. However, as you can tell if you've read the thread, Clayton has some strong visceral anti-vax viewpoints and some unusual theories, so the discussion becomes fairly emotional.

 

[dafydd]

Thank you.

Littleelvira is not on your side.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

I should have said "If you knew today that you would become severely autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Insisting mildly autistic people were included in my question was, as usual, disingenuous.

Or maybe it was disingenuous of you not to include the word.

As well, many people do indeed think that all forms of autism are equally bad to have, so why is it disingenuous to assume that you would also think about it that way, especially in light of many other comments you have made regarding vaccines and autism.

 

[Stamuel]

Or maybe it was disingenuous of you not to include the word.

As well, many people do indeed think that all forms of autism are equally bad to have, so why is it disingenuous to assume that you would also think about it that way, especially in light of many other comments you have made regarding vaccines and autism.

I agree. Clayton, if you meant what you are claiming you meant, you expressed yourself badly. To show you why, suppose I said that measles was a death sentence. You would promptly descend into a paranoid apoplectic fit about my vaccine propaganda. If I then responded, "I only meant that cases leading to death or severe brain damage are a death sentence," you would have a legitimate complaint that I did not say what I meant to say at all. Now look at what you said.

 

[000063]

How many proceses can an infantimmune system handle?

Nine is not such a large lumber when you consider how many forms of infection a baby that crawls arund, smelling things, shoving stuff inits mouth, living in a far from sterile world encouters.

Nine is a meaningless number unless you know what the capacity of the immune system is. Clayton has no idea if a baby can handle nine vaccines, he just thinks it is a big number.

I am long past caring about what the chap thinks, I await to see what he can prove. Though I suspect that to be nowt.

There's a story in a James Herriot book, IIRC, where Herriot was horrified at a family letting their kid crawl around the farmyard and stick fingers into their mouths. They were all as healthy as horses. I once ate a purple Cry Baby Tear out of the dirt as a kid. Because I love Cry Babies.

I'm guessing you have as much evidence for that statement as you do that vaccination causes autism.

Bingo.

I should apologize because people are unable to comprehend common English?

Their self serving interpretation caused their own angst. SNAFU

I should have said "If you knew today that you would become severely autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Insisting mildly autistic people were included in my question was, as usual, disingenuous.

Oh, look, Clay deliberately avoiding clarifying himself while simultaneously trying to win points. Shock, surprise.

I agree. Clayton, if you meant what you are claiming you meant, you expressed yourself badly. To show you why, suppose I said that measles was a death sentence. You would promptly descend into a paranoid apoplectic fit about my vaccine propaganda. If I then responded, "I only meant that cases leading to death or severe brain damage are a death sentence," you would have a legitimate complaint that I did not say what I meant to say at all. Now look at what you said.

What is it with people and thinking Clay has self-awareness enough to admit he's wrong? There's been no evidence of that to date.

 

[TsuDhoNimh]

Clayton - If you compare the number of antigens in all the vaccines given in all the vaccinations a child will ever get with the number of antigens an infant comes in contact with in the first weeks after delivery, you would stop worrying about a few paltry proteins and complex polysaccharides.

Count up the thousands and thousands of antigens in these:
Mother's vaginal flora and secretions
Mother's skin flora and secretions
Mother's mouth flora and secretions
The naturally occurring aluminum and formaldehyde in mother's milk

Father's/sibling's/granny's/aunties/neighbor's skin flora and secretions
Father's/sibling's/granny's/aunties/neighbor's mouth flora and secretions

Dog dander
Dog spit
Insects, insect feces
Pollen

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton - If you compare the number of antigens in all the vaccines given in all the vaccinations a child will ever get with the number of antigens an infant comes in contact with in the first weeks after delivery, you would stop worrying about a few paltry proteins and complex polysaccharides.

Count up the thousands and thousands of antigens in these:
Mother's vaginal flora and secretions
Mother's skin flora and secretions
Mother's mouth flora and secretions
The naturally occurring aluminum and formaldehyde in mother's milk

Father's/sibling's/granny's/aunties/neighbor's skin flora and secretions
Father's/sibling's/granny's/aunties/neighbor's mouth flora and secretions

Dog dander
Dog spit
Insects, insect feces
Pollen

Think about what 9 or more adjuvants do to an infants immune system.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications.htm

http://vaccine.elehost.com/contents.htm

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/vacingredient.htm
ad·ju·vant (j-vnt)
n.
1. A pharmacological agent added to a drug to increase or aid its effect.
2. An immunological agent that increases the antigenic response.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Think about what 9 or more adjuvants do to an infants immune system.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications.htm

http://vaccine.elehost.com/contents.htm

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/vacingredient.htm
ad·ju·vant (j-vnt)
n.
1. A pharmacological agent added to a drug to increase or aid its effect.
2. An immunological agent that increases the antigenic response.

Again, the diseases are much worse than "catching" autism, even though that only happens in the minds of denialists.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Again, the diseases are much worse than "catching" autism, even though that only happens in the minds of denialists.

The diseases were called childhood diseases for a reason. No parent feared them.

 

[BazBear]

The diseases were called childhood diseases for a reason. No parent feared them.

Sure Clayton, of course they never feared them

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/why-immunize

Before 1985, Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib) caused serious infections in 20,000 children each year, including meningitis (12,000 cases) and pneumonia (7,500 cases). In 2002, there were 34 cases of Hib disease.

In the 1964-1965 epidemic, there were 12.5 million cases of rubella (German measles).2 Of the 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, 11,600 were deaf, 3,580 were blind, and 1,800 were mentally retarded as a result of the infection. There were 9 cases of rubella in 2004 and only four cases of congenital rubella between 2001 and 2004.

Before 1963, more than 3 million cases of measles and 500 deaths from measles were reported each year. More than 90% of children had measles by age 15. In 2002, there were 44 cases of measles

In 1952, polio paralyzed more than 21,000 people. In 2002, there were no cases of polio in the United States.

In the early 1940s, there was an average of 175,000 cases of pertussis (whooping cough) per year, resulting in the deaths of 8,000 children annually. In 2002, 9,771 cases were reported.

In the 1920s, there were 100,000 to 200,000 cases of diphtheria each year and 13,000 people died from the disease. In 2002, there was only one case of diphtheria in the United States.

No, nothing to fear here, nuttin' at all

 

[abaddon]

The diseases were called childhood diseases for a reason. No parent feared them.

Orchitis, Meningitis, Encephalitis, Pancreatitis, Hearing loss all side effects of mumps. But let's just ignore those and inflict them on our kids.

You think parents do not fear these? You are not a parent.