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Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground

Meadmaker said:
We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.
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Perfectly reasonable mistake when threatened by a hispanic gang to mistake forward and backward motion of the car. And I am serious not sarcastic about that.

He was in a high stress sutuation and fired because the car moved. A minor mistake about the dirrection it moved but really how long would other responcible gun owners here wait when a hispanic gang is trying to run them over?

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.
 
This is part of the gun culture in the US, clearly part of the gun culture. Guns are sold on the basis of the plague of armed home invasions that gun lobbies insist is a good reason for possessing an arsenal of weapons in the home and brandishing them at the slightest provocation.

This gentleman is on trial for murder. He may even be convicted of murder. But his victim is a victim of the gun culture, of the irresponsible marketing of murder weapons as being essential to resist the probability, nay, the certainty that you will be the victim of a violent crime in your home.

I think the first thing to do in the face of this tragedy is to demand more responsibility in the marketing of firearms for home defense. I think it's necessary to gather statistic of home invasion events and make them public and prominent so people can be aware that though this may happen to them, it's considerably less likely than they might assume.

Perhaps if more people are aware of the actual risks then we might see a fall in incidents like this, in incidents where a son home unexpectedly is shot in the head by his fearful father, incidents where a toddler gets a gun from a cup holder because his absent minded father assumes that a concealed weapon is necessary to attend a wedding.

It's not the guns, it's the gun culture.
 
As I said before, If I were in charge of US gun laws, here's what I'd do:

1. Institute a mandatory Gun Safety course as part of obtaining a firearms licence, which will cover the following:
a. How to properly handle a gun (I'm thinking of having the option of showing movie scenes on the last day of class and asking what the characters did wrong in handling guns)
b. When it is NOT appropriate to use a gun
c. Safe and secure storage practices
d. The laws around gun ownership

This course can be taught at a gun club or by the local police department.
2. All private sales and transfers have to go through an FFL dealer who can charge a small fee for a background check.
3. Allow the ATF to actually enforce gun laws on the books.
4. Actually go after straw purchasers.
 
triforcharity said:
I'll agree with the very BASIC premise of this thread, though not the hyperbole and idiotic statements, just like we've seen in may other threads.

The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway.

Murder. Plain and simple. Agreed there.

The rest? Ignored.
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If the facts of the case are as reported, I agree.
 
Meadmaker said:
We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.
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In professional circles, "Warning Shots" are not a legitimate use of a firearm.

Using voice commands are legitimate, as is retreating and finding cover or concealment, but if you have time to fire a WS, you have time to take other actions to protect yourself.
 
ponderingturtle said:
.......

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.
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That depends on how regular such "accidents" are compared to lives saved. We have no where near enough study of how effective a gun is for DGUs compared to unnecessary lives lost.
 
quadraginta said:
Quoted in the OP;

[emphasis mine]
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I think the point is, if the windows were rolled down to speak to Sailor, they were then up when they pulled into the driveway. It's just a argument against the racism charge; basically, when he ran outside to confront them, the windows were up so it's likely that he couldn't, at that point, determine the race of the individuals in the car. That's how I was reading it, anyway, I could be wrong.
 
DavidJames said:
From what I know now, Mr. Sailors is not much different than many of the gun lovers on this forum. I can't help but wonder if prior to today, if Mr. Sailors could have spoken any of the words of gun lovers posting in this thread.

Repeat after me (and Mr. Sailors)....those crazy things gun haters say might happen to us law abiding citizens, will never happen to me.
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Many of the gun lovers on this forum would run shooting and screaming at someone backing out of their driveways? Keep stroking that bigotry of yours, but the rest of us will chalk that statement up to the usual ********.
 
What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.
 
Just another case of a god-fearin' second amendment respectin' gun owner protectin' HIS DERN PROPPITY with his legal guns, right?

If only he'd had more training! Isn't that one of the latest gunbanger memes? More training! More knowledge! People can be trusted! Really!

ETA: Boy, I see the butthurt among our resident cultists gets bigger with every piece of evidence indicating that people simply shouldn't have guns in the first place. And the excuses get thinner, and thinner, and thinner, and the cognitive dissonance among them gets stronger and stronger. :D

I've said it before, I'll say it again: this would be hilarious to watch if people weren't having to die to prove the point that people are lazy, careless, and irresponsible, and only a small fraction of them should _ever_ be trusted with lethal weapons.
 
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Polaris said:
Many of the gun lovers on this forum would run shooting and screaming at someone backing out of their driveways? Keep stroking that bigotry of yours, but the rest of us will chalk that statement up to the usual ********.
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Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?
 
maxpower1227 said:
Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.
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You know the funny part? Most of these gunbangers don't even realize that in a home invasion, if their gun isn't right at hand for them to pick up immediately, they'll just get shot while they're going for it.

I'm not even sure they (the gunbangers) understand how fast things move when something like that happens -- you hear the door get kicked in, BANG, and then within a few seconds there are one-to-several people inside with guns out and either giving orders or just shooting people down. And let's not even think about the case when you're asleep and get woken up by the door-kick -- the odds that they'll even know what's happening are so slight that it isn't even funny.

And somehow a gun will save you from this.

:dl:

If you're worried about home invasions, your #1 priority needs to be to MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, because the odds are _always_ heavily in favor of the guy who already has his gun out, and in a home invasion? Guess what, that ain't you.
 
Eddie Dane said:
What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.
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Some answers here

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Suicides and homicides are the biggest killers. Accidents are pretty rare. Youths and guns are a problem. Self defence and gun use is in need of more study.
 
Eddie Dane said:
What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.
Click to expand...

I was looking into this recently. In 2011 the rate of homicide was 4.7 per 100,000 (including all methods). The rate of gun death was 10.3 per 100,000. That means that the rate of death from firearms in 2011 was more than double the total murder rate for the same period.

This means that well over half of gun deaths are not deliberate murders. They're accidents and suicides.
 
remirol said:
If you're worried about home invasions, your #1 priority needs to be to MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, because the odds are _always_ heavily in favor of the guy who already has his gun out, and in a home invasion? Guess what, that ain't you.
Click to expand...

Alarms and better locks are cheaper and more effective than guns.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Perfectly reasonable mistake when threatened by a hispanic gang to mistake forward and backward motion of the car. And I am serious not sarcastic about that.

He was in a high stress sutuation and fired because the car moved. A minor mistake about the dirrection it moved but really how long would other responcible gun owners here wait when a hispanic gang is trying to run them over?

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.
Click to expand...

Missing a ---> :rolleyes: <---- ??
 
ponderingturtle said:
Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?
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Walking outside is where the responsible part ends. Best to call 911 and, if you can, leave. If you can't, stay inside where you narrow your field of fire so you lessen your chances of a stray bullet going into someone else's house. If the guy kicking in the door drops bent double, the rest aren't going to stick around.

This Sailors guy is an idiot.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is this murder is justified? :)
 
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