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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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It is strange that you would ask this just now. I recently found myself wondering what the official versus the real explanations for calling Raffaele in were.

What was the official version? Presumably just that they wanted to tidy up a few details. Or did you come across a particular account?

I was prompted to re-read this section by someone pointing out he did not sign his statement until 3.30 a.m. The suggestion being that this spoils the chronology of my suggested theory of the night's events. I don't think it does. The time at which the statement was signed does not have to be the time at which the cops could be satisfied that Raffaele's alibi evidence had crumbled.
 
not sure yet

What was the official version? Presumably just that they wanted to tidy up a few details. Or did you come across a particular account?
anglolawyer, I am still looking, but I have not found one yet. If all they wanted to do was to tidy up a few details, then it could have waited until the next morning...
 
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anglolawyer, I am still looking, but I have not found one yet. If all they wanted to do was to tidy up a few details, then it could have waited until the next morning...

Sorry Halides, but I find any other idea laughable than the one I offer, that just about the whole thing had been worked out before they asked him to come in so any official explanation would simply be bull. Anyhow, the court ruled they were suspects who should have had legal representation so the law is on my side so far as that goes.

What do you make of what I turned up? About the cops being interested in whether she went out on the spur of the moment before they had any reason to suppose she did that? 'On the spur of the moment'. That is a key phrase. In the 1.45 statement she says she lied to Raffaele and went out immediately. This was untrue. How did the cops guess she was going to be telling them that lie? Were they psychic?
 
In Honor Bound at Location 846 - the cops asked R whether A had gone out that night 'on the spur of the moment'. This was before the questioning of Amanda began.

Can anyone explain why the cops would be asking Raffaele this before 'discovering' the exchange of texts with Lumumba?

Why WOULDN'T they ask it? After all, it's a fishing trip!
 
do the math

Sorry Halides, but I find any other idea laughable than the one I offer, that just about the whole thing had been worked out before they asked him to come in so any official explanation would simply be bull.
I think that we were already in agreement about the bull (that is what my previous message implied), but I would like to know the official explanation, anyway (there may not have been any). I am still of the opinion that Dr. Giobbi's mathematical certainly is to be believed. It is late here, and I'd like to think over the rest of what you wrote.
 
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Why WOULDN'T they ask it? After all, it's a fishing trip!

Seriously Bill? Your explanation is they just randomly came up with a suggestion that happened later on to coincide with what Amanda would agree to tell them (and which was untrue). How many other random suggestions did they put to him? Take a look at the book. None. If you're fishing you cast a wide net. This was a harpoon.

You can argue that he may have misremembered the sequence of events but not that this was a lucky shot in the dark.
 
anglolawyer said:
In Honor Bound at Location 846 - the cops asked R whether A had gone out that night 'on the spur of the moment'. This was before the questioning of Amanda began.

Can anyone explain why the cops would be asking Raffaele this before 'discovering' the exchange of texts with Lumumba?

Seriously Bill? Your explanation is they just randomly came up with a suggestion that happened later on to coincide with what Amanda would agree to tell them (and which was untrue). How many other random suggestions did they put to him? Take a look at the book. None. If you're fishing you cast a wide net. This was a harpoon.

You can argue that he may have misremembered the sequence of events but not that this was a lucky shot in the dark.
I'm not saying anything with certainty. And the two highlighted suggestions are not 100% identical.

For instance, they could have been operating with the assumption that Knox had briefly gone out to give someone the keys to the cottage.

I will not go much further than this, but everyone for the last five years has had ample opportunity to hard wire into their narratives what actually happened, and include those relevant things in the book - whereas at the time, during the fog of war, no one really knows what will end up as relevant five years later.

So it is I can argue that this was the one which made it into the book because it was the one on which the night's events turned. All the other stuff would have been long since dismissed.

Look at it this way - the narrative as found in Raffaele's book could happen in 1/2 an hour, and at a leisurely pace to boot. Yet Raffaele's interrogation was 4 hours, until the 3 am signing of his "confession", as yet unseen by the outside world.

There must have been other things floated.... but it was this one point that found commonality in both rooms. So it is that this becomes, in 20/20 hindsight, the turning point. Other things are quickly forgotten.

I guess I still haven't given up suggesting that a lot of what went wrong here was the cops "stumbling" upon things they hadn't really thought out or planned for at interrogation. The rush to close the case took over rational thought - all except for Chiacchiera, if you listen to Follain.

Besides - what are you doing up this time of night!?
 
Seriously Bill? Your explanation is they just randomly came up with a suggestion that happened later on to coincide with what Amanda would agree to tell them (and which was untrue). How many other random suggestions did they put to him? Take a look at the book. None. If you're fishing you cast a wide net. This was a harpoon.

You can argue that he may have misremembered the sequence of events but not that this was a lucky shot in the dark.

I just noted that your post was numbered "6666". Not exactly the number of The Beast, but close enough so that you might rate a mention on Ergon's site!

Me, I'm quite partial to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
 
I'm not saying anything with certainty. And the two highlighted suggestions are not 100% identical.

For instance, they could have been operating with the assumption that Knox had briefly gone out to give someone the keys to the cottage.

I will not go much further than this, but everyone for the last five years has had ample opportunity to hard wire into their narratives what actually happened, and include those relevant things in the book - whereas at the time, during the fog of war, no one really knows what will end up as relevant five years later.

So it is I can argue that this was the one which made it into the book because it was the one on which the night's events turned. All the other stuff would have been long since dismissed.

Look at it this way - the narrative as found in Raffaele's book could happen in 1/2 an hour, and at a leisurely pace to boot. Yet Raffaele's interrogation was 4 hours, until the 3 am signing of his "confession", as yet unseen by the outside world.

There must have been other things floated.... but it was this one point that found commonality in both rooms. So it is that this becomes, in 20/20 hindsight, the turning point. Other things are quickly forgotten.

I guess I still haven't given up suggesting that a lot of what went wrong here was the cops "stumbling" upon things they hadn't really thought out or planned for at interrogation. The rush to close the case took over rational thought - all except for Chiacchiera, if you listen to Follain.

Besides - what are you doing up this time of night!?
I am not up. I am trying to sleep. The interrogation will not likely have been a continuous 4 hour process. That's not how it works. There are gaps.

Why 'on the spur of the moment' is the question, not: what possible reasons might the cops have in mind that motivated her to go out at all (to give someone a key, as you offer). You are addressing the wrong question. If Raffaele's sequence is correct, and he is completely clear about it (which does not mean he cannot be mistaken), the question was asked before they saw the content of the exchange of texts and before Amanda told them, in so many words, that she did, in fact, go out on the spur of the moment.

How did they do that?

ETA and what were they doing working with a theory of Amanda being involved minus Raffaele before their Eureka moment with her cell phone?
 
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I am not up. I am trying to sleep. The interrogation will not likely have been a continuous 4 hour process. That's not how it works. There are gaps.

Why 'on the spur of the moment' is the question, not: what possible reasons might the cops have in mind that motivated her to go out at all (to give someone a key, as you offer). You are addressing the wrong question. If Raffaele's sequence is correct, and he is completely clear about it (which does not mean he cannot be mistaken), the question was asked before they saw the content of the exchange of texts and before Amanda told them, in so many words, that she did, in fact, go out on the spur of the moment.

How did they do that?

ETA and what were they doing working with a theory of Amanda being involved minus Raffaele before their Eureka moment with her cell phone?

They were fishing! (And I'm not saying that just because you are prone to being annoyed from lack of sleep.)

In addressing the wrong question, you may have already answered it. Raffaele can be mistaken as to order, and still have his basic narrative remain intact. I'm not sure why "spur of the moment" is the important phrase here.
 
They were fishing! (And I'm not saying that just because you are prone to being annoyed from lack of sleep.)

In addressing the wrong question, you may have already answered it. Raffaele can be mistaken as to order, and still have his basic narrative remain intact. I'm not sure why "spur of the moment" is the important phrase here.[/QUOTE]
Are you not, Bill? Well, Amanda's 1.45 confession has her receiving a text from Lumumba at 8.30, lying to Raffaele and going out to meet him immediately. On the spur of the moment, you could say. The fact the cops already had a sense of this before she 'spontaneously' told them about it ought to attract some interest. Or, of course, you could hand-wave it away like De Felice's statement about being told what they already knew. Yes, Raffaele may be mistaken of course, but also, he may not. Which other parts of his account don't you believe and why?

I maintain Lumumba was a suspect before the interrogations began and Raffaele's account lends further support to the idea.

Can anyone turn up a reference to Lumumba's cell phone being detected in or near the Piaza that night? I thought it was in Matteini but could not find it there and now I am not sure if I made it up.
 
They were fishing! (And I'm not saying that just because you are prone to being annoyed from lack of sleep.)

In addressing the wrong question, you may have already answered it. Raffaele can be mistaken as to order, and still have his basic narrative remain intact. I'm not sure why "spur of the moment" is the important phrase here.[/QUOTE]
Are you not, Bill? Well, Amanda's 1.45 confession has her receiving a text from Lumumba at 8.30, lying to Raffaele and going out to meet him immediately. On the spur of the moment, you could say. The fact the cops already had a sense of this before she 'spontaneously' told them about it ought to attract some interest. Or, of course, you could hand-wave it away like De Felice's statement about being told what they already knew. Yes, Raffaele may be mistaken of course, but also, he may not. Which other parts of his account don't you believe and why?

I maintain Lumumba was a suspect before the interrogations began and Raffaele's account lends further support to the idea.

Can anyone turn up a reference to Lumumba's cell phone being detected in or near the Piaza that night? I thought it was in Matteini but could not find it there and now I am not sure if I made it up.
I'm not following, really. I hope it doesn't show.

I get the feeling that Lumumba was a suspect, but really cannot say why. With Guede unknown, and the pressure mounting to solve the case quickly, the cops pancked at the thought of all leads eventually drying up. By the time Guede was on the radar (not just the fourth man suspected when preliminary forensics came in), all the police could see were their leads drying up.

So I get the feeling that Lumumba was a suspect, and, yes, probably before the text message fiasco. Maybe it was the early reports of an Afircan person's hair in Meredith's hand. Amanda was a quasi-suspect only because of being a key holder. At the time all they knew was there was a Nike shoe print and Raffaele wore Nike's.

So the whole case by the 5th, under tremendous pressure, was dwindling on to three.

And, yes, however you cut it - the "Raffaele has withdrawn Knox's alibi" is before the text message fiasco. Regardless of what Raffaele got precisely right or wrong - almost all authors are agreed on the basic timeline....

It's not a matter of going through all Raffaele's point one by one and listing which are believable and which are not... it's a matter of coming up with a believable narrative that I can live with: not that my musings are important.

But these are a desparate group of cops - who if they follow Chiacchiera's advice will have nothing by the morning daylight of Nov 6th, except for two released students, and a bar owner in jail with nothing by a confused statement from a 20 year old, stressed out non-Italian speaker who's barely not a teenager.

Why not have this start with a fishing trip. Desperate questions. They have to ask that question of Raffaele about Amanda leaving on the spur of the moment - that's the way Raffaele would view it anyway. It would be up to the cops to fill Raffaele in on the "why" of it - because they suspect she'd gone either to give Lumumba the keys, or to go over herself and let him in without even remaining at the cootage herself.

If they had not let Raffaele in on the "meeting with Lumumba", why would Raffaele call it any different than in his book?

Then the police think they hit the jackpot - the verification - when they stumble on the text. Their desperation to close this case before sunrise seems to them to finally be gaining momentum.

I just hesitate to think that any of this can be the result of a mind trying to construct a conspiracy - right at that moment.
 
There should be an oblique reference in Matteini but I found the news here first:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-murder-flatmate-changes-story-520352

But a signal from Lumumba's mobile is said to place him near the murder scene at 8.38pm. Witness told police his bar was shut at 7pm. And it has emerged the first till receipt was issued only at 10.29pm.
That's great Dan. Thanks.

Have you any idea how to explain how this happened, that Lumumba's phone was picked up near the apartment? Is it a mistake, a lie, an unfortunate coincidence or what? Assuming the cops genuinely thought this happened then we can see how they needed Amanda to admit going out immediately:

8.30 Lumumba texts her
8.35 Amanda replies
8.38 his phone is picked up in the vicinity

Now what I want to know is when the cops knew whose phone it was. Anyone got that?
 
I'm not following, really. I hope it doesn't show.

I get the feeling that Lumumba was a suspect, but really cannot say why. With Guede unknown, and the pressure mounting to solve the case quickly, the cops pancked at the thought of all leads eventually drying up. By the time Guede was on the radar (not just the fourth man suspected when preliminary forensics came in), all the police could see were their leads drying up.

So I get the feeling that Lumumba was a suspect, and, yes, probably before the text message fiasco. Maybe it was the early reports of an Afircan person's hair in Meredith's hand. Amanda was a quasi-suspect only because of being a key holder. At the time all they knew was there was a Nike shoe print and Raffaele wore Nike's.

So the whole case by the 5th, under tremendous pressure, was dwindling on to three.

And, yes, however you cut it - the "Raffaele has withdrawn Knox's alibi" is before the text message fiasco. Regardless of what Raffaele got precisely right or wrong - almost all authors are agreed on the basic timeline....

It's not a matter of going through all Raffaele's point one by one and listing which are believable and which are not... it's a matter of coming up with a believable narrative that I can live with: not that my musings are important.

But these are a desparate group of cops - who if they follow Chiacchiera's advice will have nothing by the morning daylight of Nov 6th, except for two released students, and a bar owner in jail with nothing by a confused statement from a 20 year old, stressed out non-Italian speaker who's barely not a teenager.

Why not have this start with a fishing trip. Desperate questions. They have to ask that question of Raffaele about Amanda leaving on the spur of the moment - that's the way Raffaele would view it anyway. It would be up to the cops to fill Raffaele in on the "why" of it - because they suspect she'd gone either to give Lumumba the keys, or to go over herself and let him in without even remaining at the cootage herself.

If they had not let Raffaele in on the "meeting with Lumumba", why would Raffaele call it any different than in his book?

Then the police think they hit the jackpot - the verification - when they stumble on the text. Their desperation to close this case before sunrise seems to them to finally be gaining momentum.

I just hesitate to think that any of this can be the result of a mind trying to construct a conspiracy - right at that moment.
I am not suggesting a conspiracy. I am (we are) trying to retrace the steps the cops took leading up to the night of the interrogations to see what and how much they are likely to have known, or thought they knew. That will help understand better at least a couple of things:

1 just how dishonest were they being in pretending A & R were not suspects (very imho) and
2 how much of the content of Amanda's two 'spontaneous statements'* came from inside her head and how much from theirs (just about all of it was their idea)

The way I viewed the two statements when comparing them was to assume they were a shopping list of things they wanted her to say. The 1.45 one represents the cops' thinking at about that time and the 5.45 is an evolved version which includes Raffaele (arrest the alibi and they had become interested in his knife and the Nikes). With the shopping lists they have enough to go before Matteini and get her to authorise preventive detention, which was the name of the game.

That second question is relevant to the calunnia conviction since it increases the likelihood that Amanda was being pressured into doubting her own recollection and parroting the cops' theory.

* quotation marks are Hellman's
 
post-mortem alcohol collection and storage

Grinder,

In the 9th edition of Criminalistics, Richard Saferstein wrote, "Blood-alcohol levels attributed solely to alcohol consumption should result in nearly similar results for all blood samples collected from the same person [collected from heart, femoral, or cubital veins]. Alternatively, collection of vitreous humor and urine is recommended. Vitreous humor and urine usually do not suffer from postmortem ethyl alcohol production to any significant extent." (p. 294) He also discusses the use of sodium fluoride as a preservative.
 
Have you any idea how to explain how this happened, that Lumumba's phone was picked up near the apartment? Is it a mistake, a lie, an unfortunate coincidence or what? Assuming the cops genuinely thought this happened then we can see how they needed Amanda to admit going out immediately:

8.30 Lumumba texts her
8.35 Amanda replies
8.38 his phone is picked up in the vicinity

There are at least 3 possibilities:
1. He was there
2. Radio signals can bounce around and it's not that far away
3. The police lied

There are witnesses that place Lumumba in his bar that night so we can pretty much rule out #1. I don't have a cell tower or coverage map of Perugia so I have no way of evaluation if #2 is plausible. #3 seems to be a repeating theme.


Now what I want to know is when the cops knew whose phone it was. Anyone got that?

They acquired Amanda's phone records in the late afternoon of November 2nd. The text message exchange was the last activity on her phone for the previous evening. How long did it take the postal police to look up Filomena's name and address when they found her phone?
 
Can anyone turn up a reference to Lumumba's cell phone being detected in or near the Piaza that night? I thought it was in Matteini but could not find it there and now I am not sure if I made it up.

There should be an oblique reference in Matteini but I found the news here first:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-murder-flatmate-changes-story-520352

Here is what I found:

Matteini p. 14 renumbered 13 said:
The desire to prevent Diya Lumumba in the surveys could be traced to the same consideration of the message sent to Amanda on the evening of November 1, is clear in its strange behavior on the exchange of its own mobile phone in the days immediately after the fact, that fact is incontrovertible as the acquisition of traffic phone shows that the predicted until November 2, used a mobile phone having IMEI No 354548014227980 as the day of boarding had used a mobile phone with IMEI No 354548014227987.

That fact would remain neutral if he himself had admitted, since continuing to use the same number as there were still obstacles to trace the same, but what it contributes instead to give him relief is just the stubbornness of that in deny it, this factor which suggests that the same did it right on the erroneous conviction of being thus able to deflect his identification.

Catnip's translation at PMF merely summarizes these pages, this is from a google translate version that I don't have a url for, though Dan-O may know where this and the original Italian version may be found if I recall correctly. This makes more of his having 'changed phones' which was common practice for him being as he got better reception with another phone when he was at the bar, though he used the same number which is also referenced in passing near the end of the report:

Matteini p. 18 renumbered 17 said:
Diya Lumumba Amanda Knox and feel the next day but this time the phone first uses a different phone, realizing that there is no point having remained unchanged number.

I'm not quite sure what that means either, my google-translate Italian has deteriorated with disuse! I'd give you the context but it's unrelated, the sentence before referring to Amanda's sweatshirt and the sentence following regarding the males wanting 'new sensation' and 'coition.'
 
There are at least 3 possibilities:
1. He was there
2. Radio signals can bounce around and it's not that far away
3. The police lied

There are witnesses that place Lumumba in his bar that night so we can pretty much rule out #1. I don't have a cell tower or coverage map of Perugia so I have no way of evaluation if #2 is plausible. #3 seems to be a repeating theme.




They acquired Amanda's phone records in the late afternoon of November 2nd. The text message exchange was the last activity on her phone for the previous evening. How long did it take the postal police to look up Filomena's name and address when they found her phone?

Good thinking. I was wondering whether maybe you could get phones anonymously (not that I see any reason why Lumumba would -he wasn't a criminal but a law-abiding business and family man). He suspiciously switched sim cards too, didn't he? This is another reason why I think the cops projected their own suspiciousness onto the suspects and attributed to them an awareness of what the cops were doing. They turned off their phones, he switched sim cards, Amanda met him face to face to avoid surveillance and even, I think, Amanda and Raffaele managed never to talk about their involvement in the recordings that somehow got lost.

Funny about the cell phone coverage map. I thought you had that in your head.:)

ETA a fourth possibility is he lent his phone to someone else and they went to the Piazza (Curatolo? - I don't mean that seriously).
 
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Here is what I found:



Catnip's translation at PMF merely summarizes these pages, this is from a google translate version that I don't have a url for, though Dan-O may know where this and the original Italian version may be found if I recall correctly. This makes more of his having 'changed phones' which was common practice for him being as he got better reception with another phone when he was at the bar, though he used the same number which is also referenced in passing near the end of the report:



I'm not quite sure what that means either, my google-translate Italian has deteriorated with disuse! I'd give you the context but it's unrelated, the sentence before referring to Amanda's sweatshirt and the sentence following regarding the males wanting 'new sensation' and 'coition.'
LOL - well you did pretty good anyways :)
 
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