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Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground

PhantomWolf said:
Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?
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Actually, I am fairly sure he would have. I have a nasty suspicion that would not have made much, if any, difference.
 
BenBurch said:
Don't most of them deserve a post?

Remember we are talking human beings here. A Venn diagram that includes YOU.
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Maybe somewhere, but not specifically here. Remember the stats: I don't care if gang members kill each other (well, I do - I want them to) or drug dealers, etc. are killed and on fro those who are criminals. I do care when actual people are, yes - but having a thread for each is going to result in most being passed over for other fare. The groups I am directly interested in are limited (though the Sandy Hook children are definitely among them) and those I find regardless of posts here or otherwise.
 
fuelair said:
Actually, I am fairly sure he would have. I have a nasty suspicion that would not have made much, if any, difference.
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And yet this church-going good guy was (almost certainly) a legal gun owner. Another very good reason to change gun ownership laws.
 
WildCat said:
PhantomWolf said:
Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?
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You could tell the kid was Colombian by looking at him, or even Hispanic?

And what do you know about the race of the other kids in the car? It's not even mentioned. It may well have been a "bunch of white kids".

eta: I see several of the quoted passengers have Hispanic names, but there's no indication that Sailor knew the race of the people in the car. Kind of hard to determine that at night when the windows are rolled up.
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Quoted in the OP;

“Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends,” says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. “The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.”
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[emphasis mine]
 
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Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.
 
He looks white to me...

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/warrant-23-year-old-man-fatally-shot-while-driving/nT8rm/

The fact that he was able to shoot him in the head with a .22 once for a kill shot makes me wonder the distance...and am not even sure if any paramedics were called (it seems police were but I don't know if the shooting was reported or just a call on the kids themselves by Sailor).

Edit to add:

So it seems that Sailors first shot Diaz as Diaz had already backed out of the driveway but claims that Diaz had driven towards him to run him down (well that's what the lawyer says anyways) which makes no sense considering the car was at the end of the driveway. Sailors then kept the friends at gunpoint waiting for police. Paramedics were not alerted to Diaz' condition until police were on the scene and Diaz was later transported to the hospital where he died. Sailors it seems didn't even allow the passengers to dial the paramedics. This Sailors guy who apparently is a retired war vet and an upstanding guy in his community decided to crap all over that in favor of shooting a kid in the head and making sure no one else would help him.

But hey again at least the system works. Now that Sailors is probably going to be a criminal he can no longer own a firearm. Too bad owning a gun and having common sense and familiarity with self defense procedures aren't coupled together -_-
 
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WildCat said:
And did you see his picture? Is he "brown"?
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The racial component is a red herring. The fact that this guy was paranoid enough to pull a gun and start firing without even attempting to TALK to the people in his driveway is bad enough. People aren't naturally that paranoid and fearful. Random home invasions are nowhere near frequent enough to justify even his warning shot.
 
WildCat said:
And did you see his picture? Is he "brown"?
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You made the statement that the windows were rolled up. I pointed out that the information we have so far explicitly stated the contrary.

Why are you evading that?

Yes, I have seen his photo. It is in this article found through the OP link.

I don't know about "brown", but he could certainly be described as "Latino" or "Hispanic" in appearance, something which people who are prone to think in (negative) stereotypes often view as synonymous with "brown", even if they are unwilling to admit as much when asked directly.

More importantly he would sound like he was, since he had apparently only been in this country for a few months.

Luckily for him he had escaped from the bloody, war-torn hell of Colombia to the safety of America.

Welcome to the U.S.A., amigo.
 
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Are gun owners required to take some kind of course on using those things in stress situations?

That should be a requirement, I think.
This guy saw danger where there was none and went to use lethal force at once.
Probably freaked as the window rolled down, thinking he was going to get shot at.

This is just my view from Europe, of course.
But it seems that a climate of fear is created, deadly tools are available, but no (regular, recurring) training on how to act in those situations.

This dude should have gotten his gun, turned off the lights, called 911 and wait to see if this was home-invasion or just someone wanting to ask the way.
 
StankApe said:
That's not the point. If we were discussing something else, nobody would be allowed to post anecdotes and scream indignation about them as evidence for an agenda.

and the fact remains that gun violence down almost half from the high point of the mid 90's, but media coverage of gun violence is wayyy up (especially lately)

It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know.
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That gun violence and violence in general is down has nothing to do with gun dealers, makers and owners or present gun control and enforcement. Violence has dropped all over the Western World, it looks like removal of lead from the atmosphere is the reason.

Media coverage has possible gone up because there has been a rise in the number of mass shootings, road deaths are due to overtake gun deaths and the number of gun homicides has not been dropping. (1998, 9.257 gun homicides, 2011 there were 11,101)

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

So the gun problem is not going away and if anything is getting worse and I say the media and non gun owners are right to be complaining about that situation. If more gun owners were also to complain, there would maybe less vitriol directed at them.
 
triforcharity said:
No. They don't. Unless there's something specific you want to discuss, do it. This asinine "oh, someone got shot" "someone died" let's make a new *********** thread game, is *********** stupid.

I'll just start posting a link to DGU's that are legit.

In fact, here's one.

http://www.guns.com/2013/01/29/new-york-man-scares-off-intruders-with-ar-15/
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A student house gets invaded by two guys with a bb guns. One possibility that comes to my mind is student prank, where the home invaders did not know they were going to be threatened with a real AR-15.

The OP example and this example just show how DGUs are fraught with danger of getting it wrong, the difficulty in making the correct judgement in split seconds and later application of hindsight.

My suggestion would be a general DGU thread to discuss whether or not a certain event is a reasonable DGU or not.
 
Nessie said:
A student house gets invaded by two guys with a bb guns. One possibility that comes to my mind is student prank, where the home invaders did not know they were going to be threatened with a real AR-15.

The OP example and this example just show how DGUs are fraught with danger of getting it wrong, the difficulty in making the correct judgement in split seconds and later application of hindsight.

My suggestion would be a general DGU thread to discuss whether or not a certain event is a reasonable DGU or not.
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AFAIK, doesn't using a fake gun in a crime carry the same sentence as though it were a real gun?
 
maxpower1227 said:
Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.
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I agree with you and Michael Moore regards the fear. He pointed out the USA's fear in Bowling for Columbine and recently in a TV interview with Piers Morgan. The USA does appear to have whipped itself into a frenzy of fear over crime, tyranny, guns and that is a major reason behind this killing.

In the 1930s the UK government decided self defence was not a reason to have a gun because of this exact kind of difficulty. However, with few guns, gun deaths and an unarmed police, that decision was easy to make in the UK and not possible in the USA. So there needs to be an alternative.

Maybe a solution is if you want a gun for self defence, you have to go on a course. No course, you cannot go for your gun to defend yourself.
 
fuelair said:
The shooter was, in no way, a responsible gun owner -
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We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.
 
Lowpro said:
He's a guy who owned a gun legally (probably) and probably for the purposes of self defense. And now he will be a criminal who can no longer own a gun.

The system works. Instead of ending up as one statistic he ended up as another. Actually they swapped statistics come to think of it...

A responsible gun owner doesn't have the right to leave his house and start a fight with his gun. If he thought he was being robbed he should have called the police and kept himself safe. Leaving that house was not only unsafe it's not even a practical application of defense (Unless by being in the house you are less safe say they're setting it on fire...) by which having his gun at the ready should be called for. This man is just a murderer. He was not a responsible gun owner when he walked out of his door and neither was he a responsible citizen. He was a criminal the moment he walked out that door.

But at least now AFTER the fact we can make sure he doesn't have a gun right?
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Look there is nothing irresponsible about it. I mean if they had his neighbors stereo it would be all nice and legal in say texas.
 
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