Evidence that substantiates ANYTHING that happened in the Bible.

[Akhenaten]

The bible says miracles happened.

That's one of the more obvious means by which critical thinkers can tell that the Bible is just make-believe.

Fulfilled prophecy can be considered a miracle.

It's a moot point, but since there's zero evidence for either thing ever having happened there's little point in discussing it.

So if we can give evidence for fulfilled prophecies in the bible that would be evidence that some miracles happened in the bible.

Perhaps, although you gave that your best shot in yet another of the many threads you've abandoned when your arguments were shredded so it's unlikely you'll do any better this time around.

Many people believe Isaiah Chapter 53 prophecized of Jesus:

And here is where you fail.

What "many people believe" is most certainly not evidence.

Are you going to pretend you haven't had this pointed out to you scores of times?


Besides which, you've admitted yourself that Muncaster's musings aren't representative of what "many people believe":

I have a feeling Norman Geisler, Ralph Muncaster, Josh Mcdowell, and Dr. Hugh Ross do not agree with the consensus of biblical scholars, whoever they are.

Isaiah Chapter 53

<snip>

There's already a number of threads in which that nonsense is under discussion:

The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy,


Bible prophecy debate,


TTTWND and of course,


The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53​

Hoping we'd forgotten, were you?

 

[joobz]

The bible says miracles happened. Fulfilled prophecy can be considered a miracle. So if we can give evidence for fulfilled prophecies in the bible that would be evidence that some miracles happened in the bible.

Many people believe Isaiah Chapter 53 prophecized of Jesus:

Isaiah Chapter 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.

1 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

2 He was despised and rejected by men,

3 a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

4 Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

5 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,

6 yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

7 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

8 he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

9 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

10 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;

11 he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

12 and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

13 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.

14 And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

15 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

16 and with the rich in his death,

17 though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

18 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,

19 he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

20 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;

21 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

22 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,

23 and he will divide the spoils with the strong,

24 because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.

25 For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Author Ralph Muncaster in his book "Examine the Evidence" (pgs. 332-335) put the numbers beside the above verses and claims there are 25 fulfilled prophecies in Isaiah 53.

Harry potter fulfills this prophecy.

 

[Akhenaten]

Author Ralph Muncaster in his book "Examine the Evidence" (pgs. 332-335) put the numbers beside the above verses and claims there are 25 fulfilled prophecies in Isaiah 53.

He's wrong, as has been amply demonstrated in the threads linked in my previous post.

And you haven't read the book, have you?

It looks as though you haven't read Rule 6 of the MA either, come to think of it.

 

[Resume]

Author Ralph Muncaster in his book "Examine the Evidence" (pgs. 332-335) put the numbers beside the above verses and claims there are 25 fulfilled prophecies in Isaiah 53.

Well that's it then, thread over. After all, when a christian apologist (and another who offers himself as a skeptic) makes a claim we should take it as, well, gospel.

Mr. Muncaster also posits that the fossil record suggests creation rather than evolution, so I guess one can trust his reasoning.

Muncaster, Geisler, Turek, Strobel, and let us not forget the late, great William (Sir) Ramsey: Doc's unimpressive litany of apology.

 

[Wolrab]

The bible says miracles happened. Fulfilled prophecy can be considered a miracle. So if we can give evidence for fulfilled prophecies in the bible that would be evidence that some miracles happened in the bible.

The bible also has a talking snake. Isn't it cheating to Know the prophesies beforehand, then force fit them to fit your chosen godboy?

Many people believe Isaiah Chapter 53 prophecized of Jesus:

And many more people don't believe it.

Isaiah Chapter 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.

Wow. That's underwhelming.

1 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

Then why do all his pictures and statues look like a ripped Eric Clapton?

2 He was despised and rejected by men,

Yet he had a following?

3 a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

Who don't?

4 Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Yet he was the leader of his apostles and the other hangers on?

5 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,

No sick or sorrowful people in the Roman Empire or Israel?

6 yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

I'd go with afflicted.

7 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

Only if you make up a story that has the Roman's being compassionate and not letting him rot on the cross like they usually did.

8 he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Crushed? Couldn't get out of the way of the boulder?

What ever...

 

[ddt]

Isaiah Chapter 53

2 He was despised and rejected by men,

Let's at least then have some culture in this thread:

 

[ddt]

Isn't it cheating to Know the prophesies beforehand, then force fit them to fit your chosen godboy?

When you read the "Incredible odds of fulfilled Bible prophecy" thread Akhenaten linked to, you'll notice two things about Bible prophecies: (1) virtually all of them didn't come true, and (2) virtually all of them had been written only after the fact!

 

[Slowvehicle]

The bible says miracles happened .

...and other "sacred texts" make other, similar, and equally unsupportable claims.

Fulfilled prophecy can be considered a miracle. So if we can give evidence for fulfilled prophecies in the bible that would be evidence that some miracles happened in the bible.

...nothing like starting the morning with a rousinground of Texas sharpshooter fallacy...

Many people believe Isaiah Chapter 53 prophecized of Jesus:
<spamsnip>

Many people believe that sasquatch roams the forests of the Pacific Northwest. Many others believe that water "remembers" chemicals. Still others believe that "psychics" can help you know that your dead relatives want to give you hints about your appliances.

BTW, what does your boy Ehrman say about the prophecies in Isaiah? Was that part in the 30% of Did Jesus Exist? that you read?

 

[eight bits]

ddt

We seem to be winding up ... a few stray points, then:

Doesn't death automatically undo the appointment?

I wouldn't think so, surely not until Jesus had ascended. As long as he was on Earth, presumably he could have undone any death. Isn't the negotiable, contingent, reversible and worst-case temporary character of bodily death pretty much what that religion is about?

Anyway, even if we accept that Peter is first in the pecking order, it doesn't follow that he has any power not specifically delegated to him. The Eastern Orthodox, for example, acknowledge the primacy of Peter and his successors (like Ben16), but deny their supremacy.

I didn't find any other websites offering this take on the passage

That could be. I also do this sort of thing IRL. The beer menu's better than online, too.

(John 21:20-23.)
That's indeed quite some cognitive dissonance from Peter. Misunderstanding a conditional and mistaking "until I return" with "forever".

It really is an eye-opener, isn't it? There must have been some crisis when people realized that Jesus wasn't coming back any time soon, when the last of the earliest leaders died. The party line needed updating; throwing Peter under the bus was one way to do it. Or so it seems.

It isn't that the introduction of a tree bothers me. It is that CARM hasn't reflected the actual contents of the New Testament in any of the issues that have come up. The topic is, after all, evidence for things in the Bible, not evidence for things that aren't in the Bible, but which bottom-feeding apologists wish were in there.

For example, a tree really would help tie the two stories together, if only there were a tree in either story. But sure, if apologists are going to pull something out of their butts, then trees would be a logical choice.

 

[X]

"The bible says miracles happen.
Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous.
The bible contains examples of fulfilled prophecy.
Therefore the bible is true."

Really, DOC? Come on now, what would your logic professor think of this reasoning?


Let's break it down:

"The bible says miracles happen."
Since the bible is the document whose veracity is in doubt, it might be unwise to use it as a foundation of an argument for its own veracity. I mean, Harry Potter says magic happens. Harry Potter is then full of magic happening. Is Harry Potter therefore true?

"Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous."
Sure, why not? While we're at it, can we define miracles as 'differential equations'? Then most of my engineering texts can be miraculous. Or maybe we should define miraculous as 'DOC's leaps of logic'. Then your threads can be miraculous. Boy, it sure is fun when we can define anything as anything!

"The bible contains fulfilled prophecies."
Well, it claims it does. That's the very sort of thing we're questioning here, isn't it?

"Therefore the bible is true."
And this is what happens when your argument and your premise are the same thing. By the same token, The Harry Potter books and movies are true. The Deathstalker novels are true. Etc, etc, etc. Retroactive prophecy fulfillment rocks!


There is a reason circular reasoning is a fallacy, DOC.

 

[kmortis]

"The bible says miracles happen.
Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous.
The bible contains examples of fulfilled prophecy.
Therefore the bible is true."

Really, DOC? Come on now, what would your logic professor think of this reasoning?


Let's break it down:

"The bible says miracles happen."
Since the bible is the document whose veracity is in doubt, it might be unwise to use it as a foundation of an argument for its own veracity. I mean, Harry Potter says magic happens. Harry Potter is then full of magic happening. Is Harry Potter therefore true?

"Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous."Sure, why not? While we're at it, can we define miracles as 'differential equations'? Then most of my engineering texts can be miraculous. Or maybe we should define miraculous as 'DOC's leaps of logic'. Then your threads can be miraculous. Boy, it sure is fun when we can define anything as anything!

"The bible contains fulfilled prophecies."
Well, it claims it does. That's the very sort of thing we're questioning here, isn't it?

"Therefore the bible is true."
And this is what happens when your argument and your premise are the same thing. By the same token, The Harry Potter books and movies are true. The Deathstalker novels are true. Etc, etc, etc. Retroactive prophecy fulfillment rocks!


There is a reason circular reasoning is a fallacy, DOC.

Wouldn't a fullfilled prophesy be miraculous? I mean a prophesy of substance, not "the sun will rise tomorrow" kinda thing. It'd be keen if one actually held true.

 

[TimCallahan]

Wouldn't a fullfilled prophesy be miraculous? I mean a prophesy of substance, not "the sun will rise tomorrow" kinda thing. It'd be keen if one actually held true.

Not to blow my own horn, but in my book, Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?, I set up a test fro Bible prophecies - although I'm sure I'm not the only one to thin of it. Here's how it goes:

A prophecy is demonstrably either true, false or too vague to call (as in "God will send fire on your strongholds"- fire from heaven, from the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites or the Assyrians?). If it's either to vague to call or demonstrably false, we need go no further.

If it's specific and quite true, such as the total destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (Mk. 13:2), then there are a number of possible reasons why it's true:

1) It was a logical prediction based on what was happening when the prediction was written. For example, when the principality of Damascus and the kingdom of Israel were in revolt against the Assyrians, it was logical to assume that Tiglath-pileser III would devastate both kingdoms, as Isaiah predicts in Isaiah 7. This requires no divine inspiration.

2) It was history written after the fact, thus not a prophecy at all. This is demonstrably the case with Mark.

3) It was a divinely inspired prophecy. Suffice it to say, I haven't found any of these.

 

[DOC]

Many people believe that sasquatch roams the forests of the Pacific Northwest. Many others believe that water "remembers" chemicals. Still others believe that "psychics" can help you know that your dead relatives want to give you hints about your appliances.

And many like yourself believe life came from non-living chemicals over time even though it has never been proven--- just like sasquatch.

 

[pakeha]

The bible says miracles happened. Fulfilled prophecy can be considered a miracle. So if we can give evidence for fulfilled prophecies in the bible that would be evidence that some miracles happened in the bible. ...

Can you show any of those prophecies was actually made prior to the supposed fulfillment?

 

[DOC]

"The bible says miracles happen.
Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous.
The bible contains examples of fulfilled prophecy.
Therefore the bible is true."

Really, DOC? Come on now, what would your logic professor think of this reasoning?


Let's break it down:

"The bible says miracles happen."
Since the bible is the document whose veracity is in doubt, it might be unwise to use it as a foundation of an argument for its own veracity. I mean, Harry Potter says magic happens. Harry Potter is then full of magic happening. Is Harry Potter therefore true?

"Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous."
Sure, why not? While we're at it, can we define miracles as 'differential equations'? Then most of my engineering texts can be miraculous. Or maybe we should define miraculous as 'DOC's leaps of logic'. Then your threads can be miraculous. Boy, it sure is fun when we can define anything as anything!

"The bible contains fulfilled prophecies."
Well, it claims it does. That's the very sort of thing we're questioning here, isn't it?

"Therefore the bible is true."
And this is what happens when your argument and your premise are the same thing. By the same token, The Harry Potter books and movies are true. The Deathstalker novels are true. Etc, etc, etc. Retroactive prophecy fulfillment rocks!


There is a reason circular reasoning is a fallacy, DOC.

Red flag, you did not respond directly to my post, thus we have another strawman argument.

I "did not say" the following even though you implied I did, and you even included quotation marks:

"The bible says miracles happen.
Fulfilled prophecy is defined as miraculous.
The bible contains examples of fulfilled prophecy.
Therefore the bible is true."

 

[joobz]

And many like yourself believe life came from non-living chemicals over time even though it has never been proven--- just like sasquatch.

So you believe Sasquatch to have more scientific basis then God.
Ok.

 

[DOC]

Can you show any of those prophecies was actually made prior to the supposed fulfillment?

Yes, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, we know Isaiah chapter 53, was definitely written before Jesus' birth. And at least from Bart Ehrman's point of view we know that Jesus certainly existed.

 

[Mudcat]

Already answered it, don't you remember the analogy of the basketball game that started a half hour before sundown and ended a half hour after sundown, and how the game occurred on two days according to Jewish customs.

I remember that explanation, but it's rendered invalid by very specific language that's in the Bible* that says three days and three nights. Maybe it wasn't exactly seventy-two hours, which I don't see anyone arguing for except you, but this is very clear and unambiguous don't mater how you chose term a full day.

All that is pointless, anyhow, as Rome was large and in charge. The Jews were almost definitely living by a Solar calendar, like the Romans were, versus their traditional Lunar calendar.

^{*The more I read your posts, the more I fall into the camp that believes you have never read the Bible.}

 

[Slowvehicle]

And many like yourself believe life came from non-living chemicals over time even though it has never been proven--- just like sasquatch.

Biopoesis has, in fact, never been demonstrated, but there are multiple lines of promising research that have gone a long way toward describing, and demonstrating, how self-replicating chemicals can come about purely through selection pressures on chemical processes.

Creation by fiat has, in fact, never been demonstrated--and there is NO way to model the process, no research that can be done, no experimental simulation or replication that can be designed to show how any 'god' could be demonstrated to exist, much less to have the ability to create without being created.

Searching for testable answers leads to discoveries. Accepting superstitious assertions leads nowhere.

Besides, how do you know what sasquatch believes about biopoesis?

Also, since you dd not respond to my question ("BTW, what does your boy Ehrman say about the prophecies in Isaiah? Was that part in the 30% of Did Jesus Exist? that you read?", above), does that mean that your post deserves a "red flag", for being a "straw man"?
____

 

[Slowvehicle]

Yes, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, we know Isaiah chapter 53, was definitely written before Jesus' birth. And at least from Bart Ehrman's point of view we know that Jesus certainly existed.

DOC: what else does your boy Ehrman have to say about Jesus? What does he have to say about the "prophecies" in Isaiah and the rest of the OT?

Was all that stuff in the 70% of Did Jesus Exist? that you did not bother to read? you should really take the time to do so...
...especially if you are going to pretend that Ehrman provides support for your claims...