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What cryptids might be real?

Zippy,
There are a number of points in common with UFOs. As with UFOs, the only data we have is a claim- a large unidentified animal was claimed to be have been seen.
Nothing, absolutely nothing can be used to make us sure the description provided accurately matches what was there. Just like UFOs, where the "aliens" require accepting the report "as is", "sea serpent" requires accepting the sighting at face value. You can not exclude misidentification, regardless on how unlikely you might think it can be.

Misidentification, by the way, is the most likely explanation. See, they were relatively close to a river's mouth. Logs have more than once been confused with lake or se monsters. Logs are carried by rivers. Note that no observer, regardless on how skilled he/she can be is flawless. Even if 99% of the times correct, the sighting might as well have been the 1% fail.
 
Damn small cellphone screen and keyboard...

Regarding the second sighting, two words: whale shark. Some years ago one caused a flap of sea monster sightings, here in Brazil, relatively near the Paraiba do Sul river mouth.

Now, what's more likely: a mistake or a sea serpent, an unknown animal never seen later, even with increased ship transit in Brazil's territorial waters, never a carcass washed ashore or one caught in fishing nets?

Shrike:
Here in Brazil we have river otter (ariranha) that can reach 2m long. Beautiful noisy active critters, can be quite territorial and aggressive. Once met a zookeeper who said he would never dare enter their pond. Never heard about them adventuring in the sea, but I guess a flood could eventually bring a family group to the sea. Not sure if their range encompass the Paraiba river (surely not the Paraiba do Sul - but I guess the sighting was closer to Paraiba river). Will check.
 
Thanks Correa Neto for your responses. I would like to have someone look at the actual picture that was included with the report, but I was admonished not to reproduce it. It is a very interesting picture.

It shows a long-necked thing (leaning at an angle) with a space between its neck and this squarish-frill-type thing. (head, neck) then with some water spacing inbetween (then squarish frill thing).

Is it possible for you (or anyone else) to post a map with the coordinates of where this sighting happened marked out? (Both sets of coordinates that both scientists mentioned.)


That would be helpful.

As to it being a tree trunk, they are mentioning that there was something akin to propulsive activity in the water..."moving its neck from side to side" and "curious wriggling movement"....so I don't know.

I am adding this in addendum/edit, on the tree trunk explanation. I don't know if we can apply that here (although the location of the event would make it a prime candidate for such an ID), as the scientists looked at it with high-power binoculars. I have a ten-power set here in the house, and when I look at birds sitting in trees about 600 feet away (they look like dark blobs to my naked eye) with the binoculars, you can tell that they are birds, with feathers, their color schemes, and tell that they are animate, rather than inanimate. So I am thinking at 100 yards or even 120 yards with high-power binoculars as they had in the 1905 event, they would have been able to discern whether it was a floating tree trunk, rather than something that was animate--as they both concluded that it was. The surfacing event and wriggling motion was close enough via technological means to see sufficient details--that is my viewpoint.

Also, I must ask: Can you have tree trunks in rivers that have two-tone coloring? If someone can respond to that, I would be appreciative.


But again, everyone's encouraged to weigh in.
 
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Also, I must ask: Can you have tree trunks in rivers that have two-tone coloring? If someone can respond to that, I would be appreciative.

I can imagine a tree that has lost some of its bark and has become two-toned. Or epiphytic growth or discoloration by whatever means.
 
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Google Earth shows the coordinates are of a point some 43km E of the shore, 53 km SE from the mouth of Paraíba river. If Google Earth´s sea bottom topography is OK but of low resolution, as it seems to be, they were over the continental slope; without a better topography of the area, I can't go in to any more detail.

Zippy, you are trying to find reasons to back the accuracy of the description while ignoring all the problems. Again, you can't ignore the possibility of a mistake. There's a huge thread about UFO evidence where a poster trued to do the same with a number of UFO sightings. He ignored all sorts of possible issues regarding observation conditions - one case was a UFO sighting from a boat, seen through binoculars. He used the very same arguments you are using - the eyewitnesses could not have been mistaken. It as a flying saucer, not a blimp. I guess you can see the paralels here.

I am a rather good observer too, but I am pretty aware of the fact I can be fooled, mistaken or just not manage to propperly identify what I saw. I could post a list here. In most of these cases, I managed to identify properly what I was seeing. Some, I do not and include things in the water. I bet you can understand that under the certain conditions, the illusion may persist, the memories may be distorted (what was the time between the sighting and the writing of the text ?), and the interpretation of something unidentified may unfold in rather strange ways.

The oceans, or any large body of water, is a rather difficult environment to gauge distances. There are few if any differences, boats rock and floating things move. So, they might as well having been mistaken.

Again, what's more likely? A mistake or a sea serpent, an animal never seen again later (despite the increase in the number of ships in the area in later times), never washed ashore, never captured in fishing nets?

Regarding ariranhas, I made a mistake - maximum size is 1.8m, not 2m. Still a big critter. They were quite widespread, but I only found refferences of their existence further north and further south, but not at the rivers nearby the alleged sighting site.

Aniway, at http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Giant_Otter_Anjo.JPG you'll find a picture that will show why they are such a good candidate for misidentification (I know at least a possible case). But I still think a semisubmerged log is the most likely candidate.
 
mike3 said:
So, what could a lay person do that would meet your standards, despite a lack of professional training?
I'm not sure what's so confusing. If you want to be taken seriously when you claim that you've found a new species, you need to PROVE that you've found a new species. There are criteria for this: the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature, for starters. If you meet those standards, you're good. If not, you've failed. Ametures constantly live up to those standards, and professionals sometimes fail. That's irrelevant--the standards are there for a reason, and stand.

Does this mean even a body or bones would not be enough for you to take the claim seriously and give it attention?
This is coming completely out of left field. If there were bones, I'd definitely give them some attention--it's what I DO. I'd try to ID the skull and teeth, for starters. If I couldn't, I'd want a DNA test (likely they'd be done at the same time). In looking at the skull and teeth I'd come up with some hypotheses about where it fits into the tree of life. At that point it wouldn't matter who found it--and I can assure that I hold to that standard as a professional obligation.

This is something I'm curious about: if there's no single scientific method, then what does it mean in those textbooks when they talk about something called "the scientific method"? I've seen it before. What's up with it?
It's a convenient lie. Actually getting into the details as to what constitutes proof vs. evidence, what sorts of data constitute support for arguments, what sort of arguments can be supported by data in the first place, and the like tend to be above the heads of most students (and many adults). So we simplify it. Reproducibility is one of the main criteria by which we judge data (not the only one, and certainly not in the simple form it's presented as in high school textbooks, but a good one), so people focus on that. It's easy enough to understand: "If you try it, and YOU try it, and you get the same results, that means it's true!" Again, the actual epistemological issues involved are a great deal more complex, and just not worth going into among children.

And if there's no such thing as "the" scientific method, there still must be some way to distinguish science from nonscience and pseudo-science (i.e. "woo"). So what classifies a method or a body of research as "science"?
This guy says it better than I can.

I.e. what standard do you expect a lay person claiming "I saw Bigfoot" to meet (as opposed to a "Bigfoot researcher") just to have their claim taken seriously, and do you have proof that it is possible for a lay person, a person not the "unique kind of person" you mentioned in your one post, to meet it if the creature really existed (i.e. examples of non-unique-type lay people meeting the standard when the claim "I saw Bigfoot" is replaced by "I saw X", where X is a real but not-then-accepted creature, or even the whole "I saw..." claim replaced by some other, true claim that nevertheless required a similarly high standard to be met.)?
First, just so we're both clear: Are you claiming that my stance is unreasonably harsh? Are you claiming that I am unwilling to ever believe anyone who says they saw a Bigfoot?

For someone to be taken seriously they need to be able to give specific details--enough that we can go back out and verify the story. If they can't, they're out, automatically and without hesitation. If the data aren't there, the story's out, automatically and without hesitation. If the data ARE there, then we start looking into things more carefully. And through it all, I would assume that the person is merely mistaken and would be looking for alternate explanations.

The issue is, I'm not a blank slate here. I've got biological and paleontological knowledge, and they need to demonstrate that certain parts of it are wrong in order for me to believe they saw Bigfoot. For me to believe they saw something strange, sure, I can believe that without question--as I have stated several times. It's not the "I saw something strange" part that I'd be questioning--I see strange stuff in the desert and in woods all the time. It's the "....therefore Bigfoot" part.

The other issue is that I know a bit about how human minds work. Once we have an answer we stick with it. So yeah, my criteria are going to be extremely high. There is a reason for that, however: I'm acting to ensure you're not tricking yourself. I'm not asking for any unreasonable data; in fact, I'm treating them with an unearned respect by actually taking them seriously. These are the standards all of us who do this sort of work have to live by. They want to play at taxonomy (and the "...therefore Bigfoot" part is taxonomy), they've got to play by the rules--if only to keep them from fooling themselves.

As for when it's happened, it happened to me. I was in Romania, doing some paleo work. I had to avoid one outcrop, because of a 6' long lizard (that's nose to base of tail, not nose to end of tail). My professor thought I was mistaken, and they had a good laugh about it for two days--I HAD indulged in some local distilled spirits the day before, after all. I was good natured about it; I knew what I saw, and they weren't cruel, just picking on me. Anyway, two days later that professor was in the same area. When he got back he apologized to me, and provided photos of the lizard.

Then there were the bald eagle sightings back in Ohio. And the great snowy owl sightings (a blizzard blew them pretty far south). Both confirmed after a few sightings--and the bald eagles even had a webcam looking at the nest.

Paleontology is rife with such sightings. I'm still looking for sea shells in a formation that's rumored to produce them, but which scientists have never collected from.

It happens all the time. Again, this is stuff that anyone serious about this research should do as a standard operating procedure, and which anyone at all should expect to be asked to do before they're taken seriously.

Zippy Omicron said:
Can you have tree trunks in rivers that have two-tone coloring? If someone can respond to that, I would be appreciative.
Yes. Easily. Ever see a shag-bark hickory? Or a birch tree? Or hear the old wives' tale about moss and how to find north in a woods? I'd be more amazed if you could find a tree WITHOUT two-tone coloring--in water or out of it. Water actually makes it easier, because you'd have algae and the like growing on it. Algae doesn't grow all over the surface all at once; it grows in patches. Then you have things like water logging, mineral deposits (not all streams are clean, even if they're clear), sun bleaching, and the like.
 
Zippy, you are trying to find reasons to back the accuracy of the description while ignoring all the problems. Again, you can't ignore the possibility of a mistake. There's a huge thread about UFO evidence where a poster trued to do the same with a number of UFO sightings. He ignored all sorts of possible issues regarding observation conditions - one case was a UFO sighting from a boat, seen through binoculars. He used the very same arguments you are using - the eyewitnesses could not have been mistaken. It as a flying saucer, not a blimp. I guess you can see the paralels here.

100% agree with this, and as I have cited before on this forum, I have personal experience with this.

A few years ago, I was with a group of friends, who also happened to be "serious" amateur astronomers. We were doing some maintenance work on the outside of one of the domes at our local observatory when we heard a loud "humming" sound. All of us looked up at about that same time, and we all agreed later that we initially saw the same thing; a black, oval object flying overhead. It appeared to be about as big as a house, at least several hundred feet of altitude and travelling fast from east to west, heading over a group of tagaste trees (a.k.a. tree lucernes) on the western boundary. However, our initial impressions of size, height and speed were completely shattered when this "object" landed in one of the tagaste trees, swung through 90° and hung on one of the branches.

What is important here is that there were several of us, and we were all, by nature, sceptical types; all used to the discipline of making careful and considered observations, yet in the heat of that moment, we all literally lost perspective and incorrectly observed the same thing; a fast moving object of considerable size and at considerable high altitude.

I popped inside to telephone the nearest apiarist to offer him a free swarm.
 
Re: apparent movement of object if it was a tree: Tree is in ocean and rolling in the waves. It is moving.

Re: apparent two-toned effect of object: In addition to the other potential explanations offered, even an object of one solid color can appear two-toned in sunlight, when wet, on the water.

Re: observation and binoculars: I am an ornithologist and an avid birder. In open environments, I consistently underestimate distances to objects; in forested environments, I'll often overestimate those distances. For all we know, the object was much farther from the observers than they claimed.

I have often mistaken inanimate objects for birds (or other creatures). Sometimes the use of my binoculars (10X and probably far superior in performance to the optics the witnesses had in 1905) reveals the error, sometimes it doesn't. I have more than once trained my 45x spotting scope on something because I couldn't tell with my binocs if it was even a bird or not.

My best example of mistaken identity by highly trained field biologists? I was once in the field with a raptor biologist and experienced eagle watcher on the Chesapeake Bay. We walked into the ruins of an abandoned homestead on the coast and found a Turkey Vulture carcass inside. It had a naked head, small beak, two-toned wings, and a vulture's relatively blunt-clawed toes. It was also in an abandoned house, which is one of the preferred nesting sites for Turkey Vultures. This guy picks up the carcass by its foot and says to me "Check it out: immature Bald Eagle!" He was serious. I didn't press it at the time because I didn't want to embarrass him.

Now either he had a complete brain-to-mouth malfunction or I've had a complete memory malfunction about the characters I noted on that carcass. Either way, one of two highly trained ornithologists who examined the carcass in the field at a distance of 0m was completely wrong about what it was.
 
We have been scouring the oceans with big nets for thousands of years. No sea serpent.

We have been capturing large aquatic animals for thousands of years and inspected the contents of the stomach. No sea serpent.


This kind of evidence can be looked at as being robust when taken in context.
 
OK. Thanks to everyone who is weighing in with their views.

Mistaken identity is indeed possible. I am not convinced that it is a tree trunk, at least at this juncture. As the report states, the yacht was put upon a circuit of the area two more times, which I think indicates they wanted to see if they would witness it again. I don't think that they would do that if they thought it was a tree trunk. I look at the complete behavior of the eyewtinesses, as recorded.


I do think the second sighting of something has nothing to do with the first one.


Jerrywayne, I will check out that link.


I have been attempting to see if the image from the Proceedings report is on the Web, so it can be linked to. I feel it is important for everyone to see what Nicoll drew, and then you get the "complete report" in your hands, as I would say.

I think I have found a link to an illustration quite similar to the one in the Proceedings report, about five minutes ago (via a Yahoo search of "sea serpent drawing by Nicoll"). But I have noticed that, although they are quite simlar, they are not the same.


The differences being that the angle of the neck (in the Proceedings drawing, the angle is 160 degrees; in the Web article, 150 degrees--yes I measured them with a protractor) and the length of the head (the Proceedings drawing is slightly more elongated than the Web article's one--which shows a more compact head). Also, there is more space between back of neck and the described frill (two inches in the Proceedings depiction, versus one inch in the Web illustration). So I think that the picture in the Web article (which is sourced to the book that Jerrywayne is linking to on Google Books) was somewhat redrawn. Additionally, the coloring (in ink) of the creature is less dark in the Proceedings article.

http://www.guerrillaexplorer.com/cryptozoology/where-is-the-valhalla-sea-serpent/


If you think the outline of the thing equals a tree trunk, you tell me.
 
If you think the outline of the thing equals a tree trunk, you tell me.

But any person who has mistaken a tree trunk for a sea serpent would go on to draw a picture of a sea serpent, not a tree trunk.

A person who has mistaken a human (walking in the woods) for a Bigfoot will draw a picture of a Bigfoot, not a human.
 
Further elucidation on the 1905 Brazil sighting

First, I would like to thank Jerrywayne for providing an avenue to acquire further data on this sighting event.

Here is the URL ink directly to the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=cq...=X&ei=LlcBUaymKLTJ0AG404CgCA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#



The full title is: “Three Voyages of a Naturalist: Being an Account of Many Little-Known Islands in Three Oceans Visited by the “Valhalla” RYS” by MJ Nicoll, Member of the British Ornithologists’ Union with an Introduction by The Rt. Hon. The Earl of Crawford KT FRS. (London: Witherby & Co., 1908)

(This edition came from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography Library in La Jolla, California.)

From the Preface, page XVI

About the ship:

“First, however, I must tell of the good ship that carried us safely through calms and storms by sail and steam for over 72,000 miles. ‘Valhalla,” RYS, is, I believe, the only ship-rigged yacht in the world. She is of 1700 tons displacement, and is fitted with auxillary screw, which, under favourable conditions, will drive her through the water at a speed of about 10 ½ to 11 knots an hour. It is under sail, however, that ‘Valhalla’ is at her best, and on many occasions we logged 16 knots per hour.”

Page XVII

“…The total number of crew carried, including officers, engineers, and stewards, was about sixty-five…”

Reading the Preface informs the reader that these were expeditions very much akin to that was done by Charles Darwin and other naturalists—collecting plants, insects, fish, birds, and mammal specimens, and taking them back to the UK. And observing things in situ.

Page XXIII of the Preface. (The third expedition in which the creature sighting happened to take place on. It shows that while both were ornithologists, they were actually specimen sample collectors—they were recording whatever they saw, and taking specimens. There are many photographs in this book—but these were of things on the deck--including specimens, or on land for the most part. This is a very short excerpt of a very lengthy description of what they did. Since I would argue that Nicoll and everyone else on board the ship had exceptional amounts of at-sea experience, I think that his statements of distance should be given more weight, rather than less. But that is only my opinion.)

“…It was not until the autumn of 1905 that I again set out in the “Valhalla” on my last and , perhaps, most interesting voyage.

On this cruise we had a somewhat larger party, for besides Lord Crawford, the Hon. Walter Lindsay, Dr. A. Dean, and myself, Mr. EGB Meade-Waldo was invited to accompany us for the purpose of collecting insects, and thus I was able to devote my whole time to birds, mammals fishes, and reptiles, with the consequence that examples of several new species were obtained.

We sailed from Cowes on 8th November, 1905, and, after calling at Las Palmas, ran down amongst the South Atlantic Islands to the Cape of Good Hope; thence northwards through the inhospitable waters of the Mozambique Channel to Madagascar and the little-known islands which lie to the north-west. After visiting the Seychelles we returned home via the Suez Canal, completing a voyage of seven months, during which time we had covered about 19,000 miles….”

[there is mention of visiting St. Paul’s Rocks on 2nd December, and were at Bahia from 10th to 30th December 1905.]



Page XXIV-XXV of the Preface:

“The results obtained during this voyage were more important than those of the two proceeding ones.

The collection of bird-skins, numbering five hundred, contained specimens of eight species new to science. Besides these there were many rarities, few of the birds of the small coral islands to the north-west of Madagascar having been previously represented in the National [UK] collection.”




(What follows is further data dealing with the eyewitness report of the “sea serpent”—and Nicoll also describes it as such. In this version, things are expanded out a bit more than in the Proceedings report. The creature was under observation for probably the better of ten minutes, beginning at about fifty yards from the ship (while under sail power), and increasing distance. A few minutes of observing the “frill” and then the rest of the creature emerged above the surface, exhibiting propulsion activity. Interestingly, the “frill/fin” is described by Knoll as “soft” and “rubber-like.” Doesn’t strike me as a tree trunk. Indeed, this sighting is not quite actually in or near the mouth of a river, but 14 miles out in the open ocean, according to what Nicoll writes (if I understand correctly). One may argue that he was completely fooled by a tree trunk, but he observed the phenomenon for a good number of minutes, as well as via binoculars.)

[pages 21 to 26]


Chapter III ITAPARICA- BAHIA.

“Before describing our doings at Bahia, I must refer in detail to an important incident which occurred on the high seas during our second voyage thither.

On the 7th December, 1905, when in latitude 7 [degrees] 14 [minutes] S., longitude 34 [degrees] 25 [minutes] W., and about fourteen miles from the coast of Brazil near Para, a creature of most extraordinary form and proportions was sighted by two of us. At the time we were under sail only, and were slowly making our way to Bahia. It was at about 10 o’clock in the morning, and I was leaning on the rail of the poop deck, when a large fin suddenly appeared close to the ship at a distance of about fifty yards. This fin resembled that of no fish I had previously seen, and I pointed it out immediately to Mr. EGB Meade-Waldo, who was on deck with me at the time, and we watched it together for several minutes. As we passed slowly by, a long eel-like neck surmounted by a head, shaped somewhat like that of a turtle, rose out of the water in front of the fin. This creature remained in sight for a few minutes, but we soon drew ahead of it, and it became lost to view, owing to the ripple of the water. Owing to the fact that we were under sail at the time, it was not possible to go about and make a closer inspection, and with great regret we had to be content with the view we had had of this remarkable monster.

A full account of it was given at a meeting of the Zoological Society of London, on 19th June, 1906, and I quote below from the report which was printed in the “Proceedings” of that Society (10th October, 1906, p. 721):--

…..[snip, as this is the same material as I posted earlier in this thread]

“This creature was an example, I consider, of what has been so often reported, for want of a better name, as the “great sea-serpent.” I feel sure, however, that it was not a reptile that we saw, but a mammal. It is of course, impossible to be certain of this, but the general appearance of the creature, especially the soft, almost rubber-like fin, gave one this impression. It is often said that, if there were such a monster, remains of it would have been found long ago, but this is not necessarily so. Supposing the “sea-serpent” lives in deep holes, such as there were in the spot where we saw our “monster,” then there would be little chance of remains being washed ashore, and the amount of deep-sea dredging that has yet been done is very small, so that it is not surprising that no parts of this creature have been obtained in that way.

That it is not more often reported is not to be wondered at, when one realizes how often it is that a ship may sail for days together without sighting another ship, even in seas where there is considerable traffic. Also it must be remembered that such ridicule is generally bestowed on the reports of sea-monsters that many persons hesitate to describe what they have seen. I know myself of several instances of unknown sea-monsters having been seen by reliable witnesses, who, to avoid the inevitable “chaff,” would not publicly state their experiences.”

From where I stand, I think we have an excellent eyewitness (in actuality there were two), and the sighting lasted of sufficient duration (upwards of probably ten minutes) that I think—only in this case—we should be able to rule out mistaken identification of a tree trunk. I think in ten minutes of observation a tree trunk would have been able to be discerned.

But I will leave the door open on mistaken ID.
 
^So the part they were able to publish in the Proceedings was a more conservative account than what they put in the book. I wonder why . . .

There are two ways to interpret the account.

On the one hand, we could look at this as an amazing encounter with a species that looks just like the one in the description: A really big, long-necked, fin-backed sea creature of the open oceans, most likely reptilian or mammalian. The amazing part is that no such creature is ever recorded as having been washed ashore matching anything like the description, no one harpooned anything like that during the Golden Age of whaling, despite today's technology no one has photographed one, and there is nothing resembling such a creature in the fossil record of any era younger than the Mesozoic.

Alternatively, one could accept the negative evidence for such creatures as grounds plenty firm enough to establish that a creature like that described does not exist. Given that perspective, the tale is a cautionary one about how trained observers can write convincing accounts of something they've seen, but they can still be way off in their interpretation of what it was.
 
...snip...


If you think the outline of the thing equals a tree trunk, you tell me.

Yes. A branch could have been mistaken for the "neck and head" while the submerged trunk as the "fin". As the log rocks due to waves, they "see" the neck moving. The submerged part of the trunk responds for the "underwater activity".

The new text posted also contains a tidbit of information that forces me to question the accuracy of the whole thing. They claim the sighting happened at "latitude 7 [degrees] 14 [minutes] S., longitude 34 [degrees] 25 [minutes] W., and about fourteen miles from the coast of Brazil near Para". As I told you before, the coordinates would put you at the continental slope, a bit more than 50Km SE of the mouth of Paraíba do Norte river. Now, this is not "near Pará". Pará state is located almost 1400Km towards NW!

By the way, what would such an animal eat? Think about it. The "deep holes" where this sea serpent is supposed to dwell, taking in to account the sighting location, would actually be actually the continental slope and its not very rich in food. And if its a deep sea critter, what was it doing sticking its neck at the surface? Breathing? Large concentrations of food and fishes are found in open waters, yes, but where there are sea mountains rising closer to the surface, within the photic zone. These areas area heavilly fished. Whats the number of sea serpents caught by fishing nets?
 
Shrike and Correa N,

Your points are well taken.

I would only add that these were trained observers. Not merely "untrained observers," as the category that I myself might be lumped into. They spent a lot of time on the ocean, and observing those things in the ocean, and on the ocean, and in the air above the ocean. And got specimens from beneath the waves as well.

But like I said, I leave the door open for mistaken ID.

It may be that the Proceedings report was a very condensed version of what Nicoll and Meade-Waldo saw (keep in mind that they apparently also made an oral presentation to the Society as well about this sighting), and not only did that condensed version appear in the book (I decided not to retype all of that in), but more data was provided in the book version's accounting--probably from the same originating data set as was used for the Proceedings reportage--their record notebooks.

RE: Not coming across such a carcass in the intervening 100 years. (To my dim recollection, carcasses are not that common to come on shore, despite numerous reports of beaching whales and porpoises, so I don't know if that should be the "limiting factor" arguing against existence.) But I would direct your attention to the recent stranding of the pygmy right whale carcass (from 2002) that recently had DNA testing done. Here is an article that appeared in December 2012. It was found that it belonged to a previously-believed extinct cetacean branch.

http://phys.org/news/2012-12-elusive-pygmy-whale-member-thought.html

I will also provide this URL link to what is known about the pygmy right whale. Not much.

http://acsonline.org/fact-sheets/pygmy-right-whale/

And I will additionally direct your attention to the pygmy beaked whale, of which there have been exceptionally few seen. According to Wikipedia, it was identified from a rotting carcass in Baja, CA in 1990 (and a skeleton from 1991), and confirmation via back-tracking to another beach stranding from 1955 in Peru.

URL Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoplodon_species_"A"

And one more, for good measure. Apparently the most rare cetacean currently catalogued by science is the spade-toothed whale. Here's an article about it, where it does state it has never been before seen in its complete physical form (some bone parts earlier), via two beach strandings in New Zealand (2012 report):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/grrlscientist/2012/nov/06/1

It additionally says that "..the spade-toothed beaked whale lives in the South Pacific Ocean, a vast and poorly-known area that covers more than 85 million square kilometers--14 percent of the Earth's surface..."

I would argue that this also is true for vast tracts of the Atlantic as well, and parts of the Indian, etc.

Just keep in mind that the oceans are vast in dimensionality and depth. Even with common shipping lanes, doesn't mean that everything has been catalogued that cavorts and breeds in these oceans Mankind has labeled. And I would argue the opposite of Shrike's argument: Every year new species of plants, insects, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and even mammals are discovered. Some thought extinct re-discovered.

And keep in mind that despite the giant squid being known to exist for quite some time, and even with several carcasses (some more, some less intact) in hand, the first time one was filmed in the wild was only in the last fourl years or so. And now, they have recorded one not caught on a hook (CBS Evening News with Scott Pelley (USA) allegedly is going to be talking about this most recent filming this very evening on the 6:30 PM newscast.) But look at how long that took.

They're even finding new species in the middle of metropolitan areas. Here's a news story from within the last five years or so:

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/insects-spiders/insects-in-science/mystery-bug/index.html

Here's an additional line of "food for thought": I haven't done it yet, but I am seriously considering of engaging in a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request of the US Navy, and asking if they have any reports of strange, unusual, or uncatalogued creatures as eyewitnessed by US Navy personnel, say from 1940 through 2010. Any US citizen can engage such a FOIA request. I wonder if they might have such reports.

Also, still working on attempting to find out if there are any animals that have been ID'ed or catalogued as a new species based on one viewing incident.
 
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I would only add that these were trained observers.
So my story of the raptor biologist misidentifying a raptor he was holding in his hand at the time didn't illustrate the point clearly enough?


I will also provide this URL link to what is known about the pygmy right whale. Not much.

http://acsonline.org/fact-sheets/pygmy-right-whale/

"Not much" is in the eye of the beholder. Did you follow your own link to read that "several dozen" specimens have been examined?


Yep, Mesoplodon peruvianus is rare and seldom observed. We know now, however, that the first collected was in 1955. Your link suggests that 65 official encounters are recognized, with at least 6 individuals collected as fishing bycatch.

You also listed Mesoplodon traversii (spade-toothed beaked whale) as somehow relevant to the discussion. Did you follow your own link to learn that this species was first described in 1873? How about the genus Mesoplodon as a whole? Did you read that it is the most speciose genus of whales, with 14 recognized species?

Yes, there are a few forms of beaked whale that are rarely observed and have been collected and described relatively recently. There is also a fossil record of this genus dating to the Miocene.

No one disputes that new species continue to be discovered and described. What I do dispute is the existence of entirely new species (and genera and families and orders) based on the flimsiest of evidence: anecdotal accounts of observations.
 
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Zippy Omicron said:
I would only add that these were trained observers.
Paleontologists are trained to identify fossils. We're taught techniques, we're taught various pieces of equipment, we're taught all kinds of things. Yet we can still misidentify things we can hold in our hands. My boss thought he'd found a bovine tooth in the wall of an excavation, and I proved it to be nothing more than a broken calcite pebble, if you need another example. Care to guess how often we misidentify things that are further away?

The issue is, unless field markers can be identified, field IDs mean remarkably little. It's a guess--even if it's a known species. That one I saw on a birding trip with my brother-in-law: he had IDed a bird as one species, until I pointed out a few field markers that disproved the hypothesis. My brother-in-law is part of a few organizations for bird watching, and probably has as many field hours as most researchers (most of us do more writing than field work). Let me put this in perspective: A guy who's field notes are utilized in research projects missed a field marker noted by some yahoo who generally only looks at birds when they're on his plate. We all have stories like that, by the way--it's humbling, and often useful.

Even if field markers CAN be identified, that method only works for known species, and sometimes not even then. For unknown species careful inspection under controlled conditions (neither of which is possible in a boat, from ANY distance) is almost always necessary. Something other than someone's say-so is ALWAYS necessary, without exception.
 
Case in point the "rediscovery" of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker.
Original "sightings" by reputable ornithologists - and after 5 years intensive, organised, scientific searching, not a scrap of good evidence has been turned up to confirm the existence of the bird.

Personally? I believe it was mis-identification in the first place.

ETA: I have been on the reverse of this process. I sighted a Brown Booby in Victoria Australia and was pooh-poohed as a novice and being completely mistaken by the resident "experts" for ages, despite the fact that I was very familiar with the bird. They mostly used known distribution maps to prove me wrong (irony being that they used their distribution maps to disprove my distribution map).

The curator of a NZ natural history museum then pointed out that they had a number of bird carcasses in their archives that had been found in the area of my sighting.

"Experts" can be wrong.
 
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