Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[CoulsdonUK]

<snip>But it is impossible to pretend that the report never happened.

Not sure where I said or implied the above. The discussion at the time was mulling over what the Supreme Courts remit or powers would be if the prosecutions appeal was successful

 

[Grinder]

Anglo,

Sorry but it looks like the condo move will be delayed as the drilling machine for our new tunnel broke before they could ship it to us.

We have a long history of bad projects. The transit rail project is currently about 20 years behind schedule and triple the costs.

But, enough of that, back to the crime and the case.

No one responded to my Galati question so I'll try once more. He was moved from Corte Suprema di Cassazione in Rome to Perugia. At the time he was moved the trial was well underway and it could be anticipated that the Corte Suprema di Cassazione would be hearing it soon.

From the little I've read about it, it would seem he attacks more than just technical legal issue but also the thinking of Hellmann.

Just as Massei's thinking at times didn't mesh for me the same holds true for Hellmann. IIRC there was something odd about his guesses about the bloody mat print.

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglo,

Sorry but it looks like the condo move will be delayed as the drilling machine for our new tunnel broke before they could ship it to us.

We have a long history of bad projects. The transit rail project is currently about 20 years behind schedule and triple the costs.

But, enough of that, back to the crime and the case.

No one responded to my Galati question so I'll try once more. He was moved from Corte Suprema di Cassazione in Rome to Perugia. At the time he was moved the trial was well underway and it could be anticipated that the Corte Suprema di Cassazione would be hearing it soon.

From the little I've read about it, it would seem he attacks more than just technical legal issue but also the thinking of Hellmann.

Just as Massei's thinking at times didn't mesh for me the same holds true for Hellmann. IIRC there was something odd about his guesses about the bloody mat print.

I have no idea why Galati moved to Rome but I am interested in which bits of Hellman don't mesh. One that certainly does not, for me, is his upholding of the calunnia conviction. What was odd about the bathmat print? Think it might be Raf's after all?

Sorry about the condo. I was looking forward to seeing one.

 

[acbytesla]

Anglo,

Sorry but it looks like the condo move will be delayed as the drilling machine for our new tunnel broke before they could ship it to us.

We have a long history of bad projects. The transit rail project is currently about 20 years behind schedule and triple the costs.

But, enough of that, back to the crime and the case.

No one responded to my Galati question so I'll try once more. He was moved from Corte Suprema di Cassazione in Rome to Perugia. At the time he was moved the trial was well underway and it could be anticipated that the Corte Suprema di Cassazione would be hearing it soon.

From the little I've read about it, it would seem he attacks more than just technical legal issue but also the thinking of Hellmann.

Just as Massei's thinking at times didn't mesh for me the same holds true for Hellmann. IIRC there was something odd about his guesses about the bloody mat print.

Relax about the TBM Grinder, The project will be finished on schedule. Watch and see. I can't wait to tour the project once that Monster Machine Bertha starts boring under Seattle.

There are some things with Hellmann, I don't agree with either but the bathmat is definitely not one of them. I've looked at that print for a very long time and there is no way that one can definitively say it as a match to Raffaele or Rudy even though I know it belongs to Rudy.

As for your point about Gallati, I have no idea.

 

[Grinder]

I have no idea why Galati moved to Rome but I am interested in which bits of Hellman don't mesh. One that certainly does not, for me, is his upholding of the calunnia conviction. What was odd about the bathmat print? Think it might be Raf's after all?

Sorry about the condo. I was looking forward to seeing one.

Hellmann's description of how Rudi got the blood on his foot didn't make sense IIRC.

The calunnia charge didn't make sense either, especially since innocent of the other charges.

Here's Hellmann on the print -It cannot therefore be ruled out that Guede, after leaving the print of photo 104 on the pillow (ruling p. 359) and, perhaps, that of photo 105 (ruling pp. 366-367), experienced the loss of his right shoe in the course of the violent aggressive maneuvers to which he subjected Kercher, thus resulting in the soiling of his foot with blood, which he took it upon himself to wash in the small bathroom situated immediately to the left of the door to Meredith’s bedroom. Otherwise, his right shoe should also have left some kind of bloody trace along the corridor as he exited; he likely went through it,
however, with his right food bare, even if cleaned of blood by this point.


ETA - I never thought the print was worth anything as at best it could be seen as compatible with someone. I think the discredited grid technique shouldn't have been used and it did look more like Rudi's than Raf's. My problem was with how Hellamnn had Rudi getting the blood on his foot. I think it much more likely that Rudi was washing off his pants and bloody water in the bidet was transferred to the mat. I think Rudi walked straight out of the house from Meredith's room and then turned around when he realized how he looked with blood on his pants.

Aside to Ac - yeah they will be on time and under budget just like ST. Did you ever see the aftermath of the TBM in Köln?

 

[anglolawyer]

Hellmann's description of how Rudi got the blood on his foot didn't make sense IIRC.

The calunnia charge didn't make sense either, especially since innocent of the other charges.

Here's Hellmann on the print -It cannot therefore be ruled out that Guede, after leaving the print of photo 104 on the pillow (ruling p. 359) and, perhaps, that of photo 105 (ruling pp. 366-367), experienced the loss of his right shoe in the course of the violent aggressive maneuvers to which he subjected Kercher, thus resulting in the soiling of his foot with blood, which he took it upon himself to wash in the small bathroom situated immediately to the left of the door to Meredith’s bedroom. Otherwise, his right shoe should also have left some kind of bloody trace along the corridor as he exited; he likely went through it, however, with his right food bare, even if cleaned of blood by this point.

Well, he got this part wrong imho. I believe Guede got his right pants leg bloody somehow, perhaps when kneeling to put the pillow under her, something like that. It's not necessary for his shoe to have stepped in blood at this point. Then he went to the bathroom, making no prints, removed shoe and sock, stood his right foot in the bidet, rinsed his pants leg, got his foot wet with watery blood, planted it back down on the bathmat and replaced sock and shoe. I disagree with Dan and the shower, even more since I saw his photoshopped view of the bathmat rotated.

Whether he's right or I am I don't go along with Hellman. Is it only this that doesn't mesh?

 

[acbytesla]

Hellmann's description of how Rudi got the blood on his foot didn't make sense IIRC.

The calunnia charge didn't make sense either, especially since innocent of the other charges.

Here's Hellmann on the print -It cannot therefore be ruled out that Guede, after leaving the print of photo 104 on the pillow (ruling p. 359) and, perhaps, that of photo 105 (ruling pp. 366-367), experienced the loss of his right shoe in the course of the violent aggressive maneuvers to which he subjected Kercher, thus resulting in the soiling of his foot with blood, which he took it upon himself to wash in the small bathroom situated immediately to the left of the door to Meredith’s bedroom. Otherwise, his right shoe should also have left some kind of bloody trace along the corridor as he exited; he likely went through it,
however, with his right food bare, even if cleaned of blood by this point.


ETA - I never thought the print was worth anything as at best it could be seen as compatible with someone. I think the discredited grid technique shouldn't have been used and it did look more like Rudi's than Raf's. My problem was with how Hellamnn had Rudi getting the blood on his foot. I think it much more likely that Rudi was washing off his pants and bloody water in the bidet was transferred to the mat. I think Rudi walked straight out of the house from Meredith's room and then turned around when he realized how he looked with blood on his pants.

Aside to Ac - yeah they will be on time and under budget just like ST. Did you ever see the aftermath of the TBM in Köln?

On the side note, Not familiar with the Koln affair, but I'm an engineering geek. (Send me a link please). TBMs have been in operation all over the world. The vast majority of them very, very successfully. I regularly read Tunneling business Online http://www.tunnelingonline.com/ and Tunnel Talk. http://www.tunneltalk.com/
The best projects to compare Seattle's new tunnel is Madrid two huge tunnels as well as the new tunnels to the Port of Miami. BTW: I have a thousand dollar bet with a friend of mine that the tunnel is finished on or ahead of schedule. I've talked with several engineers on the project and they are a little worried about the first 300 yards because of the soil conditions there. But other than that, they are extremely confident that this will go without a hitch.

 

[acbytesla]

Aside to Ac - yeah they will be on time and under budget just like ST. Did you ever see the aftermath of the TBM in Köln?

FYI, the actual tunneling done by ST on the ULINK was done on budget and ahead of schedule.

What is great about the Big Bore tunnel is that they are going deep under the city, no where near any infrastructure...(except where they are going under the piling of the viaduct. I think they are within 10 feet there.)

 

[Dan O.]

I disagree with Dan and the shower, even more since I saw his photoshopped view of the bathmat rotated.

Whether he's right or I am I don't go along with Hellman. Is it only this that doesn't mesh?

I don't use Photoshop. I believe that composit was created in Google Sketchup which allows the mat to be rotated in the correct 3D plane. Other than the 180° rotation, I didn't make any other adjustments for where the mat was originally placed. Obviously, the mat could have been further or closer to the shower and shifted right or left.

As for Hellmann, his remarks have to be read in context which begins: "It cannot be ruled out that... ". Now, perhaps the particular scenario that Hellmann presents can be ruled out given sufficient analysis of the evidence. But that's not the point. The point is that it cannot be ruled out that the print could belong to Rudy.

 

[Bill Williams]

Calunnia

Does anyone know how today's scheduled calunnia hearing went for Curt Knox and Edda Mellas?

I am willing to predict that none of the complainants showed up.

 

[Grinder]

As for Hellmann, his remarks have to be read in context which begins: "It cannot be ruled out that... ". Now, perhaps the particular scenario that Hellmann presents can be ruled out given sufficient analysis of the evidence. But that's not the point. The point is that it cannot be ruled out that the print could belong to Rudy.

How many "it can't be ruled outs" were there?

I don't see a qualitative difference between that phrase and "probables".

The section I quoted is the only explanation he gives for Rudi's bathmat print. It illustrates how difficult writing a motivation report for a case like this is.

Bill - perhaps you could contact your friend Frank and ask him about the calunnia situation in Perugia.

Do you believe the documented situations concerning him damage his credibility?

I enjoyed his Shock blog and commented there for quite some time before you came to the case. I thought he brought a different point of view but now some things he reported maybe seem less sure and no I'm not going to list them. The recordings of the interrogations do come to mind, but I had already doubted that. That would also be true of people that got their inside dope from him.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Not sure where I said or implied the above. The discussion at the time was mulling over what the Supreme Courts remit or powers would be if the prosecutions appeal was successful

My comment picked up where Charlie's left off, in some sense. Even if the prosecution's appeal is successful in the short run, in the long run it will not matter.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA and the issue of discovery

I have been reviewing some of the DNA evidence in this case, and I found a quote about discovery in this case and also in the United States: "Based on recent news reports, the defense DNA experts in the Knox case have not been provided with the materials they require to conduct a thorough review of the DNA typing. I routinely find myself fighting battles to obtain complete discovery in DNA cases that I review in the U.S. With the stakes so high, the defense absolutely has a right to perform their due diligence." The lack of discovery was possibly the first red flag in this case for me.

 

[Kaosium]

Does anyone know how today's scheduled calunnia hearing went for Curt Knox and Edda Mellas?

I am willing to predict that none of the complainants showed up.

I'd bet the same, my guess is they do not plan for anything to happen in that case unless the prosecution wins the appeal.

Incidentally, has there been any word on when the Supreme Court might release anything on the appeal verdict?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

<snip> Do you believe the documented situations concerning him damage his credibility?

I enjoyed his Shock blog and commented there for quite some time before you came to the case. I thought he brought a different point of view but now some things he reported maybe seem less sure and no I'm not going to list them. The recordings of the interrogations do come to mind, but I had already doubted that. That would also be true of people that got their inside dope from him.

What documented situations? Sorry what recordings of the interrogations?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill - perhaps you could contact your friend Frank and ask him about the calunnia situation in Perugia.

Do you believe the documented situations concerning him damage his credibility?

Which "documented" situations? I don't believe they do damage his "credibility" if one actually reads the documents.

As for the first suggestion, AFAIK Frank is not in Perugia. I also do not know if he is following court proceedings of the various predatory prosecutions.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

my take on the recordings

Sorry what recordings of the interrogations?

IIRC Frank wrote that the interviews were recorded and that the recordings still exist. That recordings were made seems quite likely, but I would be surprised if they still exist.

 

[Grinder]

IIRC Frank wrote that the interviews were recorded and that the recordings still exist. That recordings were made seems quite likely, but I would be surprised if they still exist.

That's exactly it. What we aren't sure of is what other "facts" of the case came from him and only him. Others here have cited "a source" that told him this or that, including the existence of the recordings.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

skeptical grits

That's exactly it. What we aren't sure of is what other "facts" of the case came from him and only him. Others here have cited "a source" that told him this or that, including the existence of the recordings.

I think we should be at least as skeptical about things reported in November 2007 as anything that Frank reported on his blog (this applies mainly to anonymous sources). He attended the trial, but some who also claimed to be reporting spent some of their time gossiping with other reporters instead of listening to testimony (not that I would ever say who).

 

[Grinder]

I think we should be at least as skeptical about things reported in November 2007 as anything that Frank reported on his blog (this applies mainly to anonymous sources). He attended the trial, but some who also claimed to be reporting spent some of their time gossiping with other reporters instead of listening to testimony (not that I would ever say who).

But who reported that?

This isn't an either or situation. I'm absolutely sure that a whole bunch of the early leaks or wherever the stories came from were false. Everyone is absolutely sure that much of the early reporting was in error on many fronts.

I personally was impacted by the story of the police coming to Frank and hauling him off. If that really wasn't about the case as he implied, then that changes how I view some things.