LDS

[Jack by the hedge]

Just for clarity: Which men exactly were barred from priesthood? Was it all black people, only those with flat noses, or only those who looked like they originated in sub-saharan Africa? How many Australian aboriginals or Melanesians became priests before the ban was rescinded?

 

[desertgal]

Skin colour does not define the Negro race.

It did to Brigham Young. Along with flat noses.

Why are you here? I mean, I get that this is your hobby, trolling forums like this one with the same rhetoric. There's a few examples which support that. Okay, fine. But, according to you, you are a devout Mormon, happy, well adjusted...yet you are here. Apparently, there's something lacking in your life to the point that THIS is your hobby.

I dunno. Doesn't say much for the spiritual nourishment of the Mormon church.

You really do make the LDS Church look bad on so many fronts.

<SNIP>

SNIPed, breach of rule 0/rule 12.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[tsig]

I think what it does is move the same problem closer to the present. Even Protestant religions pretty clearly believe that the Old Testament God (i.e. their same God) was okay with all that Old Testament stuff, so they have the same problem with an eternal God at one time ordering his people to do what seem like horrible things today.

But for them, that was 2,000 years ago, when times were different, before Christ came, and they can claim that their preachers should have realized things were different by the 19th century. They can just sort of skip over the fact that an eternal God should still have to stand by what he did 3,000 years ago even if he changed his mind two thousand years ago. For Mormons, God was still explicitly speaking in the 19th century, so he changed his mind more recently.

God is apparently still changing his mind or he wouldn't need Prophets, Seers or Revelators.

 

[tsig]

The Priesthood is very important to Mormons for many reasons. One of the most important reasons is that without the priesthood a man cannot get married in the Temple. Temple marriage is requisite to receiving the greatest blessings of god.

But don't you worry. The Mormon Church has a plan for blacks.



They will be servants.

I know it's important but Janadele rather causally dismissed it as something that god didn't want blacks to have for a while, then he did so it seemed that she was downgrading the importance of the priesthood as an excuse for the church denying it to blacks.

 

[tsig]

In this case, I think that non-Mormon Christians and Jews have to be given a little slack, because they've had so many more centuries. But I'll go for the low-hanging fruit anyway. Let's take the inquisition. You don't think there was anything cynical or fraudulent about that? I think it was a case of powerful people knowingly hijacking religion to terrorize the opposition into silence.



That really is a good analogy. When the prize is big enough (heaven, power, etc.), people can delude themselves in surprising ways.



See, that's what I don't get. Why is it any less of a "fraud" to pass off a 2,000 year old book as "holy script" than a brand new book? In both cases, it's equally not true. The evidence for both is exactly the same--pure faith alone. A talking snake or horses in America circa 600 B.C.--I don't buy either one.

Again, it's falling for the Protestant PR spin, that it's normal to claim a 2,000-year-old book is scripture but a conscious fraud to claim that anything newer is. Yet, at one time, the Bible was just as new as the Book of Mormon, and people were passing it off as holy scripture. A religion founded on a hoax is still founded on a hoax, 20 years later or 2000 years later.

Yes they're all frauds but the title of this thread is "LDS" so your continued mention of others strikes me as an attempt at distraction.

 

[tsig]

There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Why did god change his mind about the Priesthood? Could he change it about women and the Priesthood?

 

[tsig]

Your lord works in mysterious ways. Ways that also mysteriously (or not) parallel human ignorance on the reality and value of concepts like negro and race as well as enlightened concepts like universal human rights.

God does have a curious way of following culture, if people are OK with slaves then god's down with that, opinion changes to free the slaves and suddenly god's right on top of it, it seems he's more of a cheerleader after the fact than a driving moral force.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

That for a short time, the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy males of Negro descent, had no effect on those who were not worthy, and those who were would have accepted the Lord's decree and have been blessed for it. No issue.

What a truly mind-bending and utterly unpleasant response. Especially when you bear in mind it wasn't God that denied anyone anything but the racist humans who were the leaders of the religion and the followers who respected them and fell into line behind them.

Trying to con us by telling us God told you to be racist just makes them even more unpleasant individuals. Having to backtrack when the position becomes embarassing but still trying to palm it off as the will of God is cringeworthy.

 

[Janadele]

Why did god change his mind about the Priesthood? Could he change it about women and the Priesthood?

No, it is an Eternal Principal that Priesthood Authority is held by worthy males. Our Heavenly Father holds the Priesthood, our Heavenly Mother does not.

 

[Mister Earl]

Yes, because without the dangly bits, you can't get proper holy reception and god has to talk to you over aggrivating static.

 

[Sideroxylon]

No, it is an Eternal Principal that Priesthood Authority is held by worthy males. Our Heavenly Father holds the Priesthood, our Heavenly Mother does not.

Is there a Mrs God?

In what way can a god be considered a man? Does God have reproductive organs? If so why? Do they have many kids? How does this fit with divine omnipotence?

Excuse my ignorance of LDS doctrine.

 

[tsig]

No, it is an Eternal Principal that Priesthood Authority is held by worthy males. Our Heavenly Father holds the Priesthood, our Heavenly Mother does not.

What does the Heavenly Mother do then?

 

[Empress]

Is there a Mrs God?

In what way can a god be considered a man? Does God have reproductive organs? If so why? Do they have many kids? How does this fit with divine omnipotence?

Excuse my ignorance of LDS doctrine.

Oh yeah, you're going to love this.

Don't know if you've read this whole, rather extensive thread, but the LDS faith has a complex after-life scenario. There's no "hell" so to speak. Just outer-darkness which those of us who were never baptized aren't eligible, so yea for us.

Then there's three levels of afterlife for the rest of us. Telestial (I may be spelling these wrong, forgive me) for the badd'uns, terrestrial, for us decent non-Mormon folk, and then Celestial, for the good Mormon people.

The Celestial is further broken down into three levels, IIRC. In the top level, you're a god yourself and have your own worlds (our god is still above you, but you're above the worlds you make.) Now, you have to populate those worlds, don't you? Well, how did the randy polygamy types who came up with this decide this would happen? By afterlife sex, of course! With multiple wives!! So ultimately, if you're an honest, devout woman in the church who follows god's word and does everything right, what is your final reward? Why, to be one of many sister wives spending eternity popping out spiritual babies!!

I can't believe I gave up my opportunity to get baptized into this when I turned 18!! Think of the paradise I've lost for myself!!

*I should say that I stopped going to church at 12 so if I've stated some of this incorrectly, I apologize, but it's been a while. Others will correct anything I've inadvertently mistaken.

 

[Foster Zygote]

There is no other word one can use in this context,...

Yes there is,

...as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from,...

If someone is standing before a group of children and says, "I'm going to grant each of you a privilege, but only the white ones", then that person would be discriminating based on nothing more than the shade of a person's skin. That is called racism.

...for a short time...

For 130 years.

...and for His own reasons.

That reason is clearly stated in the Book of Mormon and the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The reason is that they regarded people with dark skin to be cursed by god. They also claimed that they were lazy, shiftless and animalistic. Their reason for exclusion was that they thought that simply being "white" made them spiritually, intellectually and morally superior to anyone with darker skin pigmentation. That is the essence of racism.

They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

At least until this gender discrimination becomes too much of a political liability to maintain. Then, as with discrimination based on ethnicity, some future president will "reveal" that it is now acceptable in God's eyes for women to hold the priesthood.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It is not, as you say, "black" males to whom we are refering, therefore it is obviously not the correct word to use .

Could you please explicate the difference between "black" and "negro".

 

[Foster Zygote]

Skin colour does not define the Negro race.

You didn't answer the question.

So who, exactly, were those whom the Book of Mormon referred to as having been cursed with a skin of blackness so that they might be loathsome to God's people?

 

[Sideroxylon]

Oh yeah, you're going to love this.

Don't know if you've read this whole, rather extensive thread, but the LDS faith has a complex after-life scenario. There's no "hell" so to speak. Just outer-darkness which those of us who were never baptized aren't eligible, so yea for us.

Then there's three levels of afterlife for the rest of us. Telestial (I may be spelling these wrong, forgive me) for the badd'uns, terrestrial, for us decent non-Mormon folk, and then Celestial, for the good Mormon people.

The Celestial is further broken down into three levels, IIRC. In the top level, you're a god yourself and have your own worlds (our god is still above you, but you're above the worlds you make.) Now, you have to populate those worlds, don't you? Well, how did the randy polygamy types who came up with this decide this would happen? By afterlife sex, of course! With multiple wives!! So ultimately, if you're an honest, devout woman in the church who follows god's word and does everything right, what is your final reward? Why, to be one of many sister wives spending eternity popping out spiritual babies!!

I can't believe I gave up my opportunity to get baptized into this when I turned 18!! Think of the paradise I've lost for myself!!

*I should say that I stopped going to church at 12 so if I've stated some of this incorrectly, I apologize, but it's been a while. Others will correct anything I've inadvertently mistaken.

So the afterlife is a bit like one of those civilization computer games, especially the old "Black and White" title. Can you play the god role any way you want? Is there a punishment for a cruel god that builds dysfunctional worlds? Can your people die? What happens after they die?

 

[Janadele]

... How many Australian aboriginals or Melanesians became priests before the ban was rescinded?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a world wide Church and was established in many places soon after the Church was organised... including Hawaii, Samoa, Cook Islands, Tonga, New Zealand, Australia, Britain. It is pointless me researching for you, as I am discouraged from posting any information, so do your own research at official LDS sites such as LDS.org
Americans need to remember that they are not the only people in the world.

Just for clarity: Which men exactly were barred from priesthood? ...

My previous posts clearly answered your question:

There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Skin colour does not define the Negro race

 

[Sideroxylon]

<snip>I am discouraged from posting any information<snip>

A transparent dodge. You have been discouraged from spamming scripture or quoted doctrine when asked for your opinion.

 

[Janadele]

Do they have many kids? ...
Excuse my ignorance of LDS doctrine.

Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.