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Global Warming Policy Discussion

DC

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I would like to start a new topic about Global Warming.
We keep talking about the Science of Global warming and only a small part of it is about solutions, economics and policy.

For me AGW is split in 2 parts.
1. the Science of Climatology and all its relevant fields.
2. the Politics. what to do about it and how, policy and econimics.

Is mitigation the way to go? or should we concentrate on dealing with the concequences? or both?
for me personaly it is both with much much more weight on mitigation.

But what does economy say about it? what will other countries do. how much can we demand from others? how much can others demand from us?
how will we cooperate on a global level?

[pls no debates about is AGW true or not, we have a good thread for this debate already, this is for people that accept the science, or people that atleast can debate from the POV if it is true]
 
i would like to start with a video series that made me think alot about things i never actually thought about in such detail.





 
The Economist weighed in nicely after Sandy outlining the choices facing America.

snip

Many scientists and journalists are cautious in listing climate change as a causal factor behind a storm like Sandy. Understandably so: weather emerges as part of a complex system, and it would be impossible to say whether a storm would or would not have materialised without global warming. But scientists are becoming ever less shy in drawing a line between a higher frequency of "extreme" weather events and a warming climate. Climate shifts the probability distribution of such events, and so global warming may not have "caused" Sandy, but it makes Sandy-like storms more probable. As the ever-less-funny joke goes, 500-year weather events seem to pop up every one or two years these days. Frequency and intensity of storms aside, future hurricanes that hit the east coast will do so atop rising sea levels. Contemplate the images of seawater rushing over Manhattan streets and into subway and highway tunnels. Then consider that sea levels are rising. And then reflect on the fact that New York is very much like a typical megacity in being located on the water; tracing a finger around America's coastlines leads one past most of the country's largest and richest cities.

Americans may absorb all of this and decide that the smart choice continues to be a course of inaction. They may continue to believe that the storms—and droughts and heat waves and blizzards and floods—to come will be manageable because they'll be richer and well-equipped to adapt. Hopefully, there will at least be a better sense of what that is likely to mean and the trade-offs it will involve. Adaptation will be an ongoing, costly slog, with a side order of substantial human suffering. It will be one American icon after another threatened. Adaptation is not going to be easy.

Hopefully Americans will ask themselves whether it's so much worse than the alternatives—high carbon taxes or large public investments or both—after all.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/10/hurricane-sandy
 
Regarding economics of delaying carbon cuts:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/11/10/us-iea-climate-idUSTRE5A91U420091110

The IEA, energy adviser to 28 industrialized countries, said the world must act urgently to put greenhouse gases on a track to limit global warming to no more than 2 degrees Celsius.

Every year's delay beyond 2010 would add another $500 billion to the extra investment of $10,500 billion needed from 2010-2030 to curb carbon emissions, for example to improve energy efficiency and boost low-carbon renewable energy.
 
I would like to start a new topic about Global Warming.
We keep talking about the Science of Global warming and only a small part of it is about solutions, economics and policy.

For me AGW is split in 2 parts.
1. the Science of Climatology and all its relevant fields.
2. the Politics. what to do about it and how, policy and econimics.

Is mitigation the way to go? or should we concentrate on dealing with the concequences? or both?
for me personaly it is both with much much more weight on mitigation.

But what does economy say about it? what will other countries do. how much can we demand from others? how much can others demand from us?
how will we cooperate on a global level?

[pls no debates about is AGW true or not, we have a good thread for this debate already, this is for people that accept the science, or people that atleast can debate from the POV if it is true]

This seems like a terrible waste of vitally important and convenient thread (the lack of many responses or discussion)! Many of the posts I put into the other AGW thread would probably be a better fit here. I'm just a bit concerned that issues of public policy are probably more politics than science and technology, unless we are talking about the mechanics of something like Geo-engineering, which is not something I advocate or encourage. So I guess, I'm looking for a little more guidance as to the direction this thread is intended to follow?
 
We are a world of smart people, still controlled by ego-maniacal political leaders, whom border on the socio-pathic.
 
This seems like a terrible waste of vitally important and convenient thread (the lack of many responses or discussion)! Many of the posts I put into the other AGW thread would probably be a better fit here. I'm just a bit concerned that issues of public policy are probably more politics than science and technology, unless we are talking about the mechanics of something like Geo-engineering, which is not something I advocate or encourage. So I guess, I'm looking for a little more guidance as to the direction this thread is intended to follow?

hehe yeah many posts in the other thread would fit here in too. i do think this is an omportant debate to have, atleast for the people that do see AGW as a problem and that we need to do changes.

and this debate should not only involve politics, its actually also about changes in our daily life. sure those might seem very small and they are, but if the people with the highest CO footprints can reduce their footprint just a bit its already a step in the right directions.

but also on policy, what is the right way to solve the problem, and here is actually where ideology comes into play, top down policy or buttom up? free market proposals like Hansen's idea of a CO2 tax and the money going back to the people so it flows into the free market. or a more centralized approach a CO2 tax and politics decides on what we spend that money. or a combo of both?

i mis the debate on those questions. i still spend much o much time with people that still doubt the science instead of spending my time with people that also see the problem and want to debate the solutions.

but then, i though already to push this thread, but then i couldn't come up with an interesting post :)

any new ideas or approaches out therE?
 
...but then, i though already to push this thread, but then i couldn't come up with an interesting post :)

any new ideas or approaches out therE?

I understand. I'd be happy to add a few posts, "interest" however, is more a factor of the perspective the readers bring to the posts. Unfortunately, my time is about to become limited (again) but I should be able to stop by once a week or so to catch up on any ongoing discussions and add a few more posts. Thank-you for seeing a need and providing a suitable thread to meet it!
 
We are a world of smart people, still controlled by ego-maniacal political leaders, whom border on the socio-pathic.

Not that I agree, or disagree, but what do you perceive as a suitable addressment to that situation and how do you feel this relates to public policy issues regarding climate change?
 

Regardless of optimistic hopes, I'm fairly certain that we blew through any reasonable chance of holding to a global increase of 2º C last decade. The current US administration shows no indiciation that a substantive climate change agenda is anything more than a lip service talking point to political constituencies that have no other option in the US, rather than something they are willing to actually embrace or take serious public policy action toward.
 
The Economist weighed in nicely after Sandy outlining the choices facing America.

snip

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/10/hurricane-sandy

This is indeed leading toward a very important issue we can address amelioration and preventative measures ahead of impacts, in which case they are expensive and difficult to accomplish, or we can put them off into the future when they will cost even more and be even more difficult to realize.

The choice isn't whether to pay or not pay, it is whether we pay less now, or more later.

((sorry about the formatting, I'm not used to the multi-quote function but I will try to employ it in the future when making short responses to so many individual posts))
 
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Not that I agree, or disagree, but what do you perceive as a suitable addressment to that situation and how do you feel this relates to public policy issues regarding climate change?

I think we lack the collective will to address the big problems because of our economic systems, and the power given to vast global corporate structures.
We're in the awkward last days of the cowboy round-up and the gold rush.

Political power is in bed with corporate interests, which have very little incentive to change what they do or sell. We would need to restructure some laws. The U.S. would do well to lead that effort, as we remain the biggest (%) 'sinners'. I don't think that can happen as long as Corporations are a person, with the money to buy elections.

Our previous president was an oil man (not very good at it, either) and the V.P. was the top man at a firm that profits from war.
There is an insane money-grab going on now, all over the world.

It's akin to the rush on buying guns in the U.S. We fear the inevitable regulations. We know that the low-hanging fruit is drying up, so, get it while you can rules the day.
 
I'll just leave this here: Game On. Obama Throws Down the Challenge on Climate Change


We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations.

Some may still deny the overwhelming judgment of science, but none can avoid the devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms. The path towards sustainable energy sources will be long and sometimes difficult. But American cannot resist this transition. We must lead it.

(APPLAUSE)

We cannot cede to other nations the technology that will power new jobs and new industries. We must claim its promise. That’s how we will maintain our economic vitality and our national treasure, our forests and waterways, our crop lands and snow capped peaks. That is how we will preserve our planet, commanded to our care by God.[:boggled:] That’s what will lend meaning to the creed our fathers once declared.

As a foreigner I hail this as a landmark speech and a bold pledge to actually start mitigating climate change. Better late than never, I think, and I guess there is no way for him to back down from the challenge after this speech. But he cannot do it alone and will need public and political support.

Tamino puts it well: "So instead of criticizing him for not starting sooner, instead of speculating that it’s only words rather than action, we need to do all we can to help him get the job done. We need to write letters to the white house saying “We agree! We’ll support you all we can.” Do not include “It’s about time!” in that letter."

How do Americans see Obama's pledge?
Has his challenge made it to the headlines and public discourse?
What have been the reactions of American public?
 
yeah he is great in talking....



but actually do anything meaningfull? well i do hope he will do something now instead of only talking.
 
Why is this thread cluttering up the Science forum?

The OP says not to discuss the science, just policy. It should be in political forum.
 
but actually do anything meaningfull? well i do hope he will do something now instead of only talking.
I certainly hope so too, though Obama's track record does not look so good so far. His target for Copenhagen negotiations was a big disappointment to rest of the world (-4% from 1990 levels by 2020). And his administration has failed to pass dedicated climate legislation. There's only the Clean Air Act and related regulatory work by EPA which has led to a modest reduction of GHG emissions in US (with the secular rising trend of Natural Gas usage). So at least some progress has already happened during last few years.

But after a decade of procrastination it will take a lot for US to become a leader in the global effort, and I'm not sure if it will happen at all - more likely other's will lead (probably eventually China).

I try to remain reasonably optimistic about Obama's latest pledge. I guess a lot will depend on American public, as Obama will need both public and political support for the efforts.


Meanwhile the rest of the world is moving on: GLOBE Study reveals legistators hold the key to tackling climate change
The study, produced in partnership with LSE Grantham Research, is the most comprehensive audit of climate legislation across the world’s major developed and emerging economies.

“The tide is beginning to turn decisively on tackling climate change, the defining material challenge of this century. In the past year alone, as described in this latest study by GLOBE International and the Grantham Research Institute, 32 out of 33 surveyed countries have introduced or are progressing significant climate-related legislation. In 2012 alone, 18 of the 33 countries made significant progress. This is a game-changing development, driven by emerging economies, but taking place across each and every continent. Most importantly it challenges how governments look at the international negotiations up to 2015 requiring much greater focus by governments to support national legislation.

Local and national legislation is critical in committing to international efforts of carbon reduction. Without national legislation it would be much more difficult for a country to negotiate or commit to ambitious international targets, never mind leading the international efforts. The progress in national legislations is encouraging sign towards the negotiations by 2015.

That GLOBE study is very informative reading: The GLOBE Climate Legislation Study (it's almost 500 pages, and my apologies for the following lenghty quotes of some key points).
Here's a video introduction: http://vimeo.com/57092506

The report covers 33 countries, including many developing countries. It includes 17 of the top 20 emitters of GHGs, and 24 of the top 50, representing over 85% of global emissions.

Some key points from 2012:
  • 32 of 33 major economies have progressed or are progressing significant climate and/or energy-related legislation.
  • Whilst the approach often differs (whether directly inspired by climate change, energy efficiency, energy security or competitiveness), national legislation is achieving remarkably similar results -- improved energy security, greater resource-efficiency and cleaner, lower carbon economic growth.
  • Much of the substantive progress on legislative activity on climate change in 2012 took place in emerging economies, including China, which will provide the motor of global economic growth in coming decades.
  • While current national legislation does not yet, cumulatively, add up to what needs to be done to avoid dangerous climate change, it is putting in place the necessary mechanisms to measure, report and verify emissions, a pre-requisite for a credible global climate treaty.
  • This progress will deliver real benefits to national economies and, ultimately, give world leaders the political space to go further and faster in the UN negotiations, helping provide a foundation for a comprehensive, global deal by 2015.
  • Mexico passed The General Law on Climate Change, with a target to reduce GHG emissions by 30% versus Business As Usual by 2020 and creating institutional structures to support delivery; Mexico also passed the world’s first legislation relating to REDD+ readiness.
  • South Korea passed legislation that will see the introduction of an emissions trading scheme by 2015.
  • Bangladesh passed the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Development Authority Act.
  • China has begun to draft its national climate change law and local legislation was passed in Shenzhen to manage GHG emissions – the first such legislation in China.
  • India published its 12th Five Year Plan, incorporating a range of recommendations from the Low Carbon Expert Group.
  • Indonesia passed a ministerial regulation to expand thermal energy.
  • Japan introduced a carbon tax and passed the Low Carbon City Development Act.
  • Kenya developed its Climate Change National Action Plan and is taking through parliament a Climate Change Authority Bill, both of which are expected to be finalised in early 2013.
  • Vietnam passed its National REDD+ Action Programme.

Summaries of some developed countries in 2012:

EU:
...although many Member States have pushed the EU to increase its overall ambition by committing to a 30% reduction in GHG emissions relative to 1990 by 2020, internal opposition from a few fossil fuel dependent Member States has meant this has not been possible [*cough* Poland *cough*]. The EU has also encountered strong international opposition to its decision to include aviation in the EU’s emissions trading scheme, resulting in a decision to “stop the clock” for 12 months to allow the International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO) to try to broker an international solution. Despite these difficulties, some progress has been made with the passage of a new Directive on Energy Efficiency.
EU's target for 2020 has been 20% reduction of GHG emissions, share of renewables to 20%, and improving energy efficiency by 20%.

EU has already reduced it's GHG emissions 18% from 1990 level and is well on track to reach at least 20% by 2020, probably even 25%. The 30% target is still possible but it is not likely EU will commit to it unilaterally - originally in 2009 EU's offer was to commit to it if some other developed nations start doing their fair share.

US:
Following the failure to pass dedicated climate change legislation in the USA, the Obama Administration has shifted to a regulatory approach using existing powers under the Clean Air Act. The “endangerment finding” from 2009, whereby carbon dioxide was ruled to be a pollutant under the Clean Air Act, has required the Environment Protection Agency (EPA) to proceed with developing new regulations to manage CO2 emissions. In 2012, a permitting system was extended to existing sources of CO2e if they emit over 100,000 tonnes annually. Additionally, in March 2012, the EPA released a draft ruling limiting carbon pollution from new power plants. After two public hearings on the proposed rule, the agency received almost 3 million comments in favour of reducing carbon pollution from both new and existing power plants – a record for an EPA rule proposal. As of December 2012 the agency is finalising the rule.
"almost 3 million comments in favour", now that is very encouraging to hear! :cool:

Japan:
It is likely, in the short term at least, that reduced nuclear power production following the shutdown and safety inspections after the Fukushima disaster will result in higher use of fossil fuels, with a resulting increase in GHG emissions. However, despite these challenges, in its Fourth Basic Environment Plan (agreed by Cabinet Decision on 27 April 2012), Japan has set itself a target of reducing GHG emissions by 80% by 2050 and, in October, the government introduced a carbon tax.

Australia:
Australia moved toward the implementation of its 2011 Clean Energy Act and announced a decision to link its emissions trading scheme with the established EU scheme by 2018 at the latest.


The only country that has gone backwards is Canada:
For the first time, one country – Canada – has regressed following its decision to withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol and the subsequent repealing of its “flagship” climate legislation, the Kyoto Implementation Act.


There has been more progress in developing countries in 2012:
"The limited progress in developed countries contrasts with the progress made in many developing countries in 2012. Significant advances have been made, albeit in different ways, in Bangladesh, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, El Salvador, Kenya, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Pakistan, South Korea and Vietnam. Others, including China and South Africa, have made more modest forward steps."

Mexico:
Mexico is perhaps the standout country in 2012 with the passage of its General Law on Climate Change (GLCC) and pioneering legislation to prepare the ground for REDD+ implementation. The GLCC gives equal focus to mitigation and adaptation, putting into legislation Mexico’s target to reduce GHG emissions by 30% by 2020 versus her Business As Usual (BAU) scenario. It also mandates the creation of the institutional structures to support implementation of the law.

South Korea:
South Korea passed legislation that introduces a nationwide emissions trading scheme by 2015.

Brazil:
Brazil’s new forest code, approved by President Dilma on 18 October 2012 after protracted political debate, determines, among other things, that landowners in the Amazon must maintain 80% of the native forest on their land as a forest reserve protected by law.

China:
targets to decrease the carbon intensity of GDP by 17% by 2015; to decrease the energy intensity of GDP by 16%; to increase the share of non fossil fuel primary energy consumption to 11.4%; and to increase forest coverage by 21.6%.

etc.. etc...


Hopefully US is able to meet the challenge and Obama able to keep his pledge, but the part "We must lead it" is not easy to achieve as the train has already left the station and others are moving on. "We should follow the others" might be more realistic goal for time being. ;)
 
...How do Americans see Obama's pledge?
Has his challenge made it to the headlines and public discourse?
What have been the reactions of American public?

Largely as empty rhetoric tossed toward a dissaffected group who were left with no other political option but to support a person who would at least toss encouraging words their way a couple of times every four years or so, while still pushing oil and coal usage as well as caving on any serious and substantive climate legislative action.
 
I think we lack the collective will to address the big problems because of our economic systems, and the power given to vast global corporate structures.
We're in the awkward last days of the cowboy round-up and the gold rush.

Political power is in bed with corporate interests, which have very little incentive to change what they do or sell. We would need to restructure some laws. The U.S. would do well to lead that effort, as we remain the biggest (%) 'sinners'. I don't think that can happen as long as Corporations are a person, with the money to buy elections.

Our previous president was an oil man (not very good at it, either) and the V.P. was the top man at a firm that profits from war.
There is an insane money-grab going on now, all over the world.

It's akin to the rush on buying guns in the U.S. We fear the inevitable regulations. We know that the low-hanging fruit is drying up, so, get it while you can rules the day.

I find myself largely in agreement with this take.
 
Why is this thread cluttering up the Science forum?

The OP says not to discuss the science, just policy. It should be in political forum.

mmh you are actually right.
 
mmh you are actually right.

Rather what I was wondering in my first post. It depends upon whether you intended to focus on legislated resolutions/treaties and national/international negotiations (politics) or individual resolutions (social issues, current events).
If we are to talk about the technical aspects of various technologies and how the details might impact the acceptability (or not) of how these details might affect the adoption of such in national policies to address climate issues,...we could argue a sci/tech perspective.
 

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